Is this a Cult? *UPDATED*
It's been several days since I've posted-- my mind and time has been occupied with a situation that I am at a loss as to how (if even how) I should respond. In a nutshell, the 18-year-old daughter of some friends has decided to "join" a group known as Smith's Friends. I've been able to find a little bit on the internet about the group. On the surface, they sound like a "christian group"--they refer to themselves as The Christian Church (no association with the Restoration Movement churches, some having the same "name"). But some of the teachings I've read about don't ring true with my understanding of Scripture. Here are some links that I've read:
Some of the teachings (according to one website) are that Jesus was not God and He sinned unconsciously when He was on the earth. The site also claims the group teaches that Christ died for His own sins, as well as the sins of man. Current day leader, Sigurd Bratlie's teachings are accepted by Smith's Friends as infallible.
Several things concern me about this situation (NOTE: I'm speaking from information I've been told by the parents and close friends of the family). First, is how quickly the group was able to convince this girl to join them-- telling her, in essence, that the church she belonged to was not a true church and the things she had been taught by the church and her parents were not right. Second, they convinced the girl to move into their home, out of her dorm where she recently began attending college on a full scholarship. This girl is VERY intelligent-- she graduated at the top of her class; the scholarship was to a well known, private university. Yet, somehow...
The most disturbing thing to me is that the person that lulled her into this group is one that should be a trusted individual in our community. It appears that he has been "grooming" this girl for some time by giving her literature, etc. to help indoctrinate her. I spoke with another parent who said their son brought home some of the literature; that boy did not join the group.
The parents are devastated. Please pray for John and Joanie. Also pray that their daughter will have her eyes opened to this deception.
UPDATE 08-21-09 : Updated broken or dead links
1,940 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 1940 Newer› Newest»Keith: More fodder for the Cartoon Circus. You will be provided with more materials to enlighten minds.
VOLUME 1 - Common Truths about Southern Baptists (which enables those who realise the truth to leave the fold for the Mormons or SF much to the unhappiness of said SBs):
"A sect of Protestant Christianity in the south east United States that are known for their very Caucasian congregations, believe in the absolute word by word truth of the King James version of the Bible, and perpetuate themselves by having their deacons find replacement preachers that will not disturb their fundamentalist and far-right theology. Sect is characterized by rampant hypocrisy, prejudice, racial intolerance, bigotry, small-mindedness, and an unenlightened view of the world and social change. Waspish country clubs without the tennis courts.
QUOTE: My uncle was a Southern Baptist preacher. He hated Jews, blacks, gays, and anyone on welfare; but he preached that Jesus loved everyone.
The Southern Baptist Convention is a far-right, White Supremacist cult founded in the 1830s for the sole purpose of defending human (specifically African-American) slavery.
While it claims to be based on the Word of God and has trappings of Christianity, the truth of is far more sinister: The Southern Baptist Convention is a tool of the Anti-Christ whose machinations are responsible for corrupting the world with fascism, Stalinism, and Nazism.
Its creators were Southern slave-owners and their sympathisers, who cried like spoiled children because the humanitarian and progressive northerners would not fund pro-slavery congregations, pay slave-owning ministers, or support pro-slavery missionary activity.
Northerners, progressive Southerners, and African-American southerners continue to serve our Lord and Saviour as the American Baptist Convention, while Southern Baptists have gone on to stand up for racial segregation, homophobia, misogyny, theocracy, and reactionary nationalism. Through the control of the Republican Party and the DLC (both of which they share with corporate interests), Southern Baptists continue to inflict hate, pain, and suffering upon America and upon the world.
Jerry Falwell, a prominent hatemonger affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, supported racial segregation until it became so politically unacceptable to do so that his career and his ability to defraud people by exploiting their faith would have been ruined. Likewise, both Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have used their disgusting faith as excuses to launch tirades against social liberals, women, homosexuals, the working classes, and religious minorities."
Enjoy!
I would not call Lowell Streiker's work unbiased.
He was hired by SF to write the book, in order to combat the negativity portrayed in the media towards them.
It was nothing but a pr stunt.
Elf: Unlike SF, the SBC is quite a public denomination and although we admit there was some division in the past in re: slavery, we wholeheartedly acknowledge the fact that we are living in the year 2008--and have moved on. There is ample material (internal and external--widely available to the public I might add) to debunk your silliness--unlike your beloved SF.
On a grammatical matter, please note the following per Wikipedia:
"A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea, or the words of an author..."
If you're going to subject us to your rants, please at least have the decency to do so WITH PARAGRAPHS!!! It makes your comments/silliness easier to read and understand.
Mr Truth:
Are you stating here that Mr Lowell Streiker was "bribed", took money to write a book that tells lies about the SF? Can you state that unambiguously here if you have the courage (which of course you don't have, so why am I asking?)? You are not going to be able to hide much longer under that nom-de-plume because your campaign of lies is going to catch up with you very soon.
Elf stated: "...a tool of the Anti-Christ." You mean there's only ONE?! So Elf is a dispensationalist, eh?
Elf: We're still waiting for your bio. Full name, city of residence, etc. ...if you have the courage.
Keith: Permit me to stick to my literary peccaddiloes. I reccomend that you read James Joyce's Ulysses or some Samuel Beckett so that you can become more "free" in your mind.
But let us do some washing of dirty SBC linen out here too since it is a space where a "faith group" is being besmirched.
VOLUME 2: STATE OF SBC IN 2007 (I hope you have moved much much further down the road in 2008, Keith.)
1. For the first time in Southern Baptist history, a sitting trustee is recommended for removal by his fellow board members for taking his concerns to the wider audience of Baptists through the use of internet technology.
2. For the first time in Southern Baptist history, the same trustees reverse course, allowing the trustee to continue his service though denying him any committee appointment.
3. Caucuses of younger leaders form and issue competing declarations with approximately the same number of signatures.
4. Robert Reccord is forced to leave the North American Mission Board after an unprecedented exposé in a state Baptist paper of the fiscal mismanagement and irresponsible stewardship of Southern Baptist mission dollars.
5. The heir-apparent for the convention presidency and much sought after preacher, Georgia pastor Johnny Hunt, surprises his peers by announcing his decision to pull out of the race. He then announces his intention to nominate Ronnie Floyd.
6. Seminary presidents use the resources afforded them by the Cooperative Program to endorse a candidate for SBC president.
7. In a surprise move, Tennessee pastor Jerry Sutton jumps into the race for SBC president, splitting the Patterson-Pressler coalition for the first time since the Conservative Resurgence began.
8. A dark horse candidate from South Carolina with a stellar Cooperative Program record joins the race for SBC president. Frank Page wins on the first ballot in a three way race.
9. Wiley Drake is elected 2nd Vice President on the first ballot over three other candidates. Many messengers credit the humorous nomination speech as the reason for Drake’s election.
10. A record number of motions are submitted for consideration by the Southern Baptist Convention.
11. Southern Baptists adopt a resolution on alcohol consumption that prompted more debate on the convention floor than any resolution in recent history.
12. The doctoral dissertation of Frank Page is circulated by the president of Southwestern Seminary. The dissertation, written in the early 1980s, endorses the ordination of women for pastoral offices. Frank Page is forced to explain how his views have changed to shield against ongoing rumors about his commitment to the BFM2000, or lack thereof.
13. Several megachurch pastors begin experiencing trouble because of congregational unrest that takes to the blogosphere. Former SBC President Bobby Welch’s successor at FBC Daytona Beach resigns in the face of insurmountable challenges. Adrian Roger’s successor, Rev. Steve Gaines, faces criticism of his refusal to remove a confessed pedophile from his church staff. Bellevue erupts in strife, forcing Joyce Rogers to defend the legacy of her husband on the radio.
14. Texas pastor Dwight Mckissic preaches a sermon at Southwestern Seminary in which he acknowledges his own private use of glossolalia and criticizes actions of the IMB board to restrict missionary appointments on that basis.
15. Southwestern Seminary president Paige Patterson censors McKissic’s sermon and issues a public rebuke of his own trustee, calling his message “harmful to the churches.”
16. Southwestern Seminary trustees pass a statement aligning the Fort Worth school with the IMB policies and restricting the appointment of faculty who affirm private glossolalia, in spite of the fact that several current professors hold that view.
17. The Southern Baptist of Texas Convention passes a resolution, authored in part by Drs. Bart Barber and Malcolm Yarnell, that denies that glossolalia were ever given by the Spirit for private use. SBTC Executive Director Jim Richards explains this position by suggesting that Baptists who share Dwight McKissic’s views may “ride on the bus,” so long as they don’t try to drive the bus.
18. An organization of sexual abuse survivors begins petitioning Southern Baptist leaders to deal more thoroughly with the problem of clergy abuse. Reciprocal press releases are fired back and forth between the survivors network and SBC leaders.
19. Lifeway Christian Resources releases a study that reveals 10% of Southern Baptists identify themselves as Calvinists. Not even Malcolm Yarnell questions the legitimacy of the statistical data.
20. In spite of the swirling controversies, the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering reaches its highest receipts ever.
21. Southern Seminary reports record enrollment, surpassing Southwestern and Southeastern in total headcount. Southwestern reaches the lowest enrollment since Southern Baptists have been using the new formula to calculate CP allocation to the seminaries.
22. Former Southwestern faculty member Sheri Klouda files a lawsuit against the school, citing Paige Patterson’s breach of contract, fraud, and defamation as the grounds for her suit. Accreditation agencies begin an investigation of Southwestern’s alleged violations. Southwestern’s trustee chairman, Van McLain (NY), says that Klouda’s hiring was a “momentary lax of parameters.”
23. Union University President David Dockery succeeds in bringing the factions of the Southern Baptist crisis together for a three day conference at the Tennessee school. For the first time since Wade Burleson’s near ouster, the groups talk to each other face-to-face.
24. The Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention affirms the BFM2000 as a sufficient guide for SBC agency policies and doctrinal parameters.
25. Missouri Baptist layman Roger Moran takes swipes at Ed Stetzer, Danny Akin, and others in his effort to purge the Southern Baptist Convention of “emergent” theology and practices.
26. The Missouri Baptist Convention ousts 19 churches whose members designate a portion of their mission dollars to go the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. A new church in St. Louis becomes the source of controversy due to its ministry in a local pub. MBC Executive Director David Clippard is terminated.
27. The Tennessee Baptist Convention sues Belmont University for control of the school.
28. A million dollar debacle in the Texas valley brings the ouster of several top BGCT staff. Charles Wade announces his retirement.
29. Louisiana College, the only Baptist College in the State of Louisiana, continues to suffer loss of morale due to ongoing disputes between the administration and the faculty.
30. Richard Land, president of the ERLC, counsels Mormon candidate for the United States presidency how he can attract evangelical voters while denouncing the candidacy of Rudy Giuliani, raising suspicion in the blogosphere and elsewhere.
31. Fulfilling a promise to balance his appointments, SBC President Frank Page appoints BGCT and BGAV pastors to serve on key convention committees.
32. Not once, but twice, resurgent warriors gather in Dallas, Texas at a meeting hosting by Criswell College president Jerry Johnson. No candidates emerge to challenge Frank Page.
33. NAMB trustees choose Geoffrey Hammond to replace Bob Reccord at the helm of the Atlanta-based mission board.
34. Texas pastor Dwight McKissic hosts two “roundtables” to discuss the policies of Southwestern Seminary and the International Mission Board. From the first meeting, letters are sent requesting that Lifeway conduct a study to determine the position of Southern Baptists on the issue of tongues. After the second meeting, a conference on the Holy Spirit takes place.
35. Lifeway Research releases its report on Southern Baptist view of tongues. Supporters of the IMB/Southwestern policies cry foul, denouncing the research methodology as flawed and rejecting the findings as accurate.
36. As never before, resolutions submitted to the Southern Baptist Convention are publicized on blogs, allowing potential messengers information leading into the convention previously inaccessible.
37. After a one year reprieve from the traditional SBC Pastor’s Conference under the leadership of Marietta, Georgia pastor Bryant Wright, new conference president Hayes Wicker returns the format to its earlier style. Younger pastors continue to opt for non-Southern Baptist conferences with increasing frequency.
38. Jerry Falwell dies. His funeral and tributes receive more coverage perhaps in Baptist Press for a greater period of time than did Adrian Rogers, Homer Lindsay, or W.A. Criswell. Two weeks after his death, Falwell banners are still prominently displayed on Baptist Press, even getting headline billing over the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention or the New Orleans relief effort.
39. Both Southwestern Seminary and IMB trustees pass policies that seek to limit the degree to which sitting trustees may speak publicly against board actions. The silencing of principled dissent continues, until SWBTS Professor Malcolm Yarnell takes his aim at Thom Rainer, Ed Stetzer, and the entire Lifeway administration.
40. Rick Warren, author of the immensely popular Purpose-Driven literature, is scheduled to address the 2007 meeting of the Baptist General Convention of Texas.
41. Two longtime opponents of SBC fundamentalism die. Houston businessman John Baugh, founder of SYSCO Foods, and Baylor University’s president emeritus, Herbert Reynolds, are gone within months of each other.
42. SEBTS President Danny Akin draws fire from other SBC seminaries because of his balanced assessment of Calvinism, Emergent churches, and other hot-button issues. Akin proceeds undaunted.
43. Texas pastor Jack Graham of Prestonwood Baptist Church unites with charismatic leader T.D. Jakes for a second annual “Global Day of Prayer” on Pentecost weekend, after which both churches lead the Dallas community in 90 days of blessing their communities. Graham draws repeated fire from SBC fundamentalists who think building homes and praying with T.D. Jakes are compromises of the doctrine of the Trinity.
44. Continuing his herculean efforts to fight the “Five Global Giants,” California pastor Rick Warren hosts a conference on AIDS. Among the speakers invited to address the group is Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama, drawing more fire at Warren from SBC fundamentalists who believe his actions constitute a compromise of pro-life social philosophy, and perhaps the doctrine of eternal security.
45. Julie-Pennington Russell becomes the first woman to pastor the First Baptist Church of Decatur, GA, further evidencing the “vast feminist conspiracy” of the Baptist left.
46. SBC President Frank Page speculates about reopening the question of Southern Baptist involvement with the Baptist World Alliance.
47. The Women’s Missionary Union succeeds in defeating a motion brought by the SBC Executive Committee that would lead to more direct control of the Birmingham-based missions support organization by the Southern Baptist Convention.
48. After a series of tersely-worded emails, a debate between Tom Ascol, James White, and the Brothers Caner falls through. Both sides accuse the other of “pulling out” or “changing the format arbitrarily.” The debate regarding Calvinism never occurs on the campus of Liberty University.
49. After a minor surgical procedure, Southern Seminary president Al Mohler nearly dies from pulmonary emboli. Miraculously, Mohler makes a full recovery and offers a meaningful commentary on life, death, and the sovereignty of God.
50. The Southern Baptist of Texas Convention, under the leadership of this year’s First Veep nominee, Rev. Jim Richards, forwards to all their member churches an anti-Calvinistic mailing that warns of a decline in baptisms if Reformed theology gets a foothold in Southern Baptist life. The letter, originally sent under the cover of Evangelism Director Don Cass, is allowed to simmer a few weeks in SBTC circles before Jim Richards sends out his own letter expressing regret that the earlier mailing could have been misinterpreted as a criticism of Reformed theology.
51. A group of Missouri Baptists who supported the conservative shift in the state convention band together to oppose the increasingly hard-right fundamentalism of Roger Moran.
52. Paige Patterson’s sister-in-law, Kathleen Kelley, mysteriously gains an appointment to the International Mission Board, making her the third member of Patterson’s family, including Patterson himself, to serve on the board during Rankin’s administration. The second family member was the former editor of the Southern Baptist Advocate, Federal inmate number 04899-017, Russell Kaemmerling.
http://baptistblog.wordpress.com/2007/06/01/the-way-forward-part-one)
And we're STILL waiting for the bio... and the use of a paragraph.
(Do the SF have an aversion to paragraphs as well as critical analysis?)
Wow, one more post like that I may have to declare Elf the winner and abandon my SBC church. Never have I seen someone cut-and-paste (a bunch of old news) with such authority.
Elf, if you had done any homework at all re: the church I attend you'd know that the SBC isn't top priority for us. Our affilation with the SBC is more tied to missionary efforts and tax-related issues/requirements of the IRS. Beyond that, we are not a typical SBC church...but then, I don't expect an individual that likes to hide behind anonymity and has the inability to construct a readable post to take the time to do any real investigating.
Rick Warren makes me laugh...
Keith: Well since you are so happy and convinced that the others who are anonymous on this blog are angels, why don't you get to work on them? Ha, so now Keith is only pseudo-SBC, how wonderful!!
By and large this blog has moved away from seriousness to blabber and insinuations and of course Keith you have been satiated because many have appeared here who have whispered in your ears just what you want to hear.
But that is the way of all flesh, isn't it?
Allow me the freedom to continue to contribute in as inane a manner as everyone else does upon this blog!!
Elf: I'm sorry I couldn't read that last post. It all ran together WITHOUT PARAGRAPHS.
"Seriousness?" You honestly think anyone has taken you serious? You think way to highly of yourself.
"...so now Keith is only pseudo-SBC." You know nothing about me. You didn't even try to look at our church's website --which I posted on April 2. You're too busy trying to be clever to do any real research. "Elf" = "fairies that are somewhat mischievous..." (Source: Princeton online dictionary) You continue to make the case against SF for the rest of us...
Keith: I am just playing dumb like y'all, don't you get it? A lil insinuation here, a lil hearsay there, a lil bit of personal angst, a lil somethin' ... that's all. :-) Irritated? It's how we play the witchhunt game! Happy hunting!
STILL waiting for that bio...gutless.
Keith: I understand that SBCs or whatever funny denomination you belong too also have their biases. But I suggest you up the ante and ask all the people with the deep information to put up their bios too. I am sure it won't be half as interesting as mine though. LOL. Maybe that's why you insist on mine.
Elf: "...SBCs or whatever funny denomination you belong too also have their biases." What you're really saying is that you didn't take the time to really read any of the things you cut-and-pasted here. You have no idea who Frank Page, Danny Akin, Dr. Criswell, Al Mohler, Tom Ascol, or James White are, now do you? (I've personally met several of them).
===
I asked for your bio because you threw out the challenge first--today, April 18 at approx 10:28. You stated to "Truth": Can you state that unambiguously here if you have the courage (which of course you don't have, so why am I asking?) You are not going to be able to hide much longer under that nom-de-plume because your campaign of lies is going to catch up with you very soon.
So...who has the courage? Don't ask for something you aren't willing to do yourself. The fact is, I believe you already KNOW who Truth is, so your "calling him/her out" is just another ploy to kill time.
Elf: As I look back through the thread, your "identity challenge" actually went out first to Yukon at 6:18 this morning. You issued the challenge--you go first first or we'll just assume you're just as--to quote you--"fearful to reveal [your] identity..." which is fine with me. Just dont' expect anything more from the others.
(Don't worry folks. I won't have to ask any of you for names. "Elf" ain't gonna jeopardize his good-standing with the SF folks.)
I’ve been mulling over the type, manner of discourse that has been exchanged in this thread. And I hope that other silent readers and active participants have as well. It seems like there was a hiatus to prepare and plan for ‘the second act’ (per Elf’s earlier posts) but the second act seems to be going in the same direction as the first one. Come on, is this really necessary?
Elf: though I admire the passion and zealousness that you seem to have for your church, it would have been so good to see you displaying some compassion to those who do not share your views. Why not allow them to speak of their experiences without discarding all that they say as simply being a result of the bitterness that they have toward the church or telling them that they were not really a part of the church to begin with and therefore could not have come to the proper conclusions?
In most cases, kind words and an open heart (yes really!:-) are all it takes to melt away any type of bitterness (should there be any). Likewise,[as Keith has kindly opened up the comments section of HIS BLOG for all of us to agree or disagree or simply air out our opinion on this particular post], you should also be able to speak of the goodness of your church without getting belittled. Then let those who are reading this or will read this thread in the future come to their own conclusions. We are all of average intelligence and there is no need for manipulation or trickery or deceit or name-calling to convey a point of view or to reveal the hypocrisies in others (if that is how you chose to explain away your conduct). This is of course suggestion on my part and you are free to select your own modus operandi.
Keith: As I do not know you personally, I have also taken the time to read through many of your other posts to get a better understanding of you as an individual. Through the various comments and posts that I read through on this site, I learned so many interesting things about you. It was nice to learn that you have been a sponsor of a child in India for several years now, that you are a contributor to the Salvation Army and many other little tidbits. I enjoyed reading your walk down memory lane about getting on the wrong school bus as a child and your Christmas memories. In many instances (from reading some of the comment sections on various posts), I have also seen you and those holding different opinions to yours actually becoming friends. So I am concluding that you are open-minded in many ways. And though, I do not necessarily agree with all the views that you hold, I really appreciate your forthrightness. Thank you for allowing me to read and comment on your ‘personal’ space in the blogosphere.
Yukonbound: Thanks for stepping up and presenting your point of view in the manner in which you did. You’ve given me much food for thought.
Have it good, everyone!
Pen gu[I]n Out.
Hello,
I am definitely one of the ones that Keith referred to as just popping in and checking things out. I have to say I have always enjoyed discussion, and enjoy this one especially due to Keith's moderation. The fact that his motivation for this discussion is a genuine care for his friends' daughter, and not a hate-agenda has helped this, I think. I was motivated to finally contribute, because of the references to the Sunday Schools, or Children's Meetings.
As I've mentioned to some contributors on this discussion privately, I have been teaching Sunday School for over three years...or four years...I'm not entirely sure. Those children wear me out! And I have to say, I love teaching Sunday School! I am also aware of the enormous responsibility it is, to have such young children placed in my care, ad to have the grace to plant love for the good in their hearts.
The way it is done differs from church to church of course, but here we have Sunday School from about 11:1 am to 12pm. Kinda have way through the regular Sunday Meeting. The children are divided into two age groups from 4-6 and 7-9. We do this because we find their attention spans and learning abilities differ widely. I teach the younger children, along with another teacher, so that we can give as much attention as is needed to the individual children. We begin with singing songs that every Christian child in North America knows I think, like "Jesus loves the Little Children", and "This Little Light of Mine". The children get to pick the songs, and they love doing all the actions. Then we kneel down together, and one of the teachers prays, with the children repeating it after every line. They usually run along the lines of "Dear Lord Jesus, thank you that we can come together today, help to be good like you." and if they are VERY jumpy, we add "and help us to listen to our teachers". Which always makes me giggle a bit, but it seems to work for a few minutes at least! We then tel a story from the Bible, using those flannelboards to illustrate it, which the children love. After the story, we talk about what we can learn. Like if we do Daniel in the Lion's Den, we talk about praying to Jesus when we are afraid. Then the children tell each other what they learned, and what they are going to practice being good at this week. There's always some little girl that loves the attention and goes on and on about how she's going to help her Mommy and pray every night, and not fight her sisters.....etc. Then we do a craft that reflects the lessons, and if the general meeting still isn't over, we read to the children, or get them to read to us, or we get out the tambourines and dance around to some CD's of children's songs.
As to the material we use: Primarily the Bible. IN addition to the Bible, we use material from several commonly used Sunday School organizations. All the stuff we buy is from local Christian Bookstores, and we've found them to be an awesome support in our task.
As to the approval of the church, their was some questions a while back, as to the simplicity of our lessons, however as one brother said: these children are four years old. They can hardly tie their shoe laces. It's ridiculous to teach them Christ manifest in the flesh!" And so the matter was put to rest! Our local church leader fully approves of our lessons, and our teaching methods. We meet with him about twice a year, to keep him updated, and he sometimes visits the children during Sunday School, which they absolutely love, and all fight to sit on his knees. IN fact he said he would sometimes rather come to our Sunday School than sit downstairs!
One of my favorite memories of teaching Sunday School was one Sunday, when a little boy had been truly disruptive, and had started bothering the other children and upsetting them, so one of us sat with him behind the other children, while the other teacher continued the lesson. When it was time for the craft, the other teacher quietly took him aside and asked him what the matter was, and why had he been so disruptive. The little boy was quiet for a bit, and then looked up with tears in his eyes and said "But i WANT to be good! It's just so HARD!" Which is something I think we all can relate to sometimes! So the other teacher talked to him about obeying Jesus even when it's hard, and asking for help whenever we need it, and that was that! But it showed me how much God uses these children to speak to my own stubborn heart!
So yeah, I just thought I would give a view of how we do it, right now. I have to say, working with the children is such a joy. Their excitement and wonder at the Bible stories is so encouraging to see, it helps me recapture that child-like "wow everything is SOO cool!" attitude. It has also created a great humility in me, that God can use the children to help me see the areas I need to work on for my inner transformation.
I hope this was helpful in showing you all kinda what daily (or sundayly) life is like in our church!
Keith: As always, you amuse me no end when you consistently give more leeway to the hate-mongers. But that is as it ought to be. It's interesting how people who have the same hate-agenda are nicely banded together on this site.
"One" spirit, huh? Methinks, they protest too much!
But I digress.
Now that the "good" spirits like Penguin (respect, respect) have come in and want another "act" which is not the way the first and second went, yeah, good suggestion.
Still, I am going home chuckling about all the nefarious assumptions Keith makes of me. Poor chap! But what else can one expect from one for whom the music stopped in the 70s (that's just a joke, by the way!)?
Then again, what is he to do with all the text that appears before him. It is a daunting task to read it all and then read again between the lines, ain't it Keith?
I guess apart from monitoring (as website admin!!) the IPs of those who visit the blog, I would encourage you, Keith, to find me out and post my bio on your blog. I have no objection. Do some work, Keith. Earn your knowledge and understanding of myself.
And then, hopefully if you know what "fairness" is, you will do the same with the other "masked" slanderers. :-) "Seek and ye shall find."
And Elf_Asura vanishes in a plume of orange smoke!!!!
Mr Truth:
Are you stating here that Mr Lowell Streiker was "bribed", took money to write a book that tells lies about the SF? Can you state that unambiguously here if you have the courage (which of course you don't have, so why am I asking?)? You are not going to be able to hide much longer under that nom-de-plume because your campaign of lies is going to catch up with you very soon.
-----------------------------------
Sure. Lowell Strieker was hired by Smith's Friends to write his book. It was a decision taken by the leadership to invite him to Brunstad, due to the heavy criticism that was directed at the group in the mainstream media.
I never said he was bribed, but you can put one and one together. Why would anyone bother to write a book about a group, which at that time, only had 15,000 members? Surely it would not entice lots of book sales...
As for your petty attacks directed at the SBC, I guess the best example for me is Billy Graham. He is southern baptist and part of the SBC. When he preaches to the masses, he tells them to find a good bible based church, he does not tell them they must join a southern baptist church, or else they're doomed. Therein is the difference between SBC and SF.
Look at the millions of sinners that Billy Graham has saved, whilst SF rebukes these same people and holds them in disdain. Ask yourself, who is really doing God's work on earth? Surely not Kare Smith who tries to retain his congregation for himself and mould them in his image?
elf_ashura, I dare you to testify one day in your local SF congregation and quote Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, John Wesley etc... You will see that the leading brother will rebuke you instantly for bringing "the spirit of the harlot" into the church.
Mr Truth:
Like I said before, I am sorry if you have suffered under some sort of "strange" SF individual leaders or "strange" fellowship (it happens in most churches that way sometime or the other).
I do not know exactly what sort of sufferings you underwent which you hint of out here. But in all honesty I can state plainly and firmly that what you are speaking about in entirely alien to me and many many others.
In all my years (and I can also testify on behalf of many many friends), neither I nor others have ever been rebuked for quoting someone outside the Church or for "evangelising" like Billy Graham did. In fact, I have never heard of other churches being referred to as the harlot either but I have heard the Gospel spoken so powerfully that the "harlot spirit" is exposed and judged and flees. I have had exposure to some of the "best" in the Church and understand that i have a long way to go, but never once has anyone rebuked me for having a "harlot spirit" for reading books by other Christians or even for quoting them when speaking or testifying.
Your experiences might be true but I think they might be the "exception" rather than the "rule" which you make it out to be and which you propagate with vehemence.
Further, I think there were some rough times which people like you and Yukon were exposed too in the days of the "revival" - a long long time ago - when things were being shaken and stirred in the Church till they settled down again. I think you have been affected much and it shows. I pity you and hope you will come to inner healing some day.
Elf: I thought you said "Elf_Asura vanishes in a plume of orange smoke!!!!"
I frankly don't care who you are. Again, you are the one challenging the anonymity of the other posters. If you're not willing to identify yourself to them, don't require they do the same for you. Pretty simple. Am I talking too fast for you?
Jarsmom: I am glad you brought up the name of Lowell Streiker. Smith’s Friends uses this guy as an authority on cults. His name has been on the SF web site for some time now, and is still there promoting his book. And who is Lowell Streiker? He has written many books, but did you know that he is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ? And here is a statement from the official UCC web site on their Open and Affirming resolution:
“To say that a setting of the UCC (a local church, campus ministry etc.) is ‘Open and Affirming’ means that it has publicly declared that ‘gay, lesbian, bisexual’ (GLB) people (or those of all ‘sexual orientations’) are welcome in its full life and ministry (e.g. membership, leadership, employment etc.) It bespeaks a spirit of hospitality and a willingness to live out that welcome in meaningful ways.”
So SF declares itself to be an ultra-conservative Christian group and then uses an ultra-liberal minister, whose church denomination openly denies the Biblical commands on homosexuality, to defend their group? I find this very amusing. And tell me why SF feels the need to defend their group from the cult word up front on their web site?
I would also like to know why Mr. Streiker’s book cost $106 on Amazon.com? Doesn’t look like they want to sell too many of them.
As TheTruth pointed out, I can also confirm that Mr. Streiker was paid by SF to write the book. Do you think you are going to get an unbiased view of this group when they had to pay the guy to write the book? You can claim him as an authority if you want to but I will look elsewhere for credible sources.
Elf, you made the following statement: “I hope your prayers are ascending and meeting that bronze barrier in the sky!”
Please forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by “the bronze barrier in the sky”?
You have obviously have done some research on the Southern Baptists and that is OK. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the gory of God. None of us are perfect. But at least all that stuff is out in the open and public. I also don’t see anywhere where they are accused of coercing young women and separating them from their families as a matter of doctrine. Can you say the same thing about SF?
Also Elf, you stated that you have never heard of other churches being referred to as the harlot. Have you not read “The Bride and the Harlot”? That was a very clear message from Sigurd Bratlie.
Keith: Calm down. If you think you're talking too fast, slow down! If you don't care who I am, that's fine with me. ROFL.
Harold: Good to see you back! I find that you are interesting enough to not play language games with in terms of a debate.
Let me try to reply on some of your points, not that it makes a difference in a space where everybody is speaking at odds and ends and the lines are clearly drawn between "adversaries" leaving little space for dialogue. So be it! There must be divisions!!
1. On Streiker, you are using a very common informal logical fallacy called "poisioning the well". This sort of "reasoning" involves trying to discredit what a person might later claim by presenting unfavorable information (be it true or false) about the person. This "argument" has the following form: 1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented. 2. Therefore any claims person A makes will be false. The person making such an attack is hoping that the unfavorable information will bias listeners against the person in question and hence that they will reject any claims he might make. However, merely presenting unfavorable information about a person (even if it is true) hardly counts as evidence against the claims he/she might make. (In effect, feel free to follow your own sources but your trick of poisoning the well doesn't work with those who know the trick.)
2. "Why SF feels the need to defend their group from the cult word up front on their web site?" Perhaps they have encountered those who are rabid Counter Cult Movement freaks or Anti-Cult Movement fascists? Or you think that faith groups under attack ought to just turn the other cheek?
3. "I also don’t see anywhere where they are accused of coercing young women and separating them from their families." But I suppose the SBC strategies of justifying their many positions down through history from pro-slavery to covering up for abusive ministers is fine! Apply your logic of "all have fallen short" to the SF and you will see that all things even out!
4. I am sorry Harold, I have read the Bride and the Harlot only too well and perhaps more closely than you and nowhere in it does Bratlie attack other churches as "harlots". He only speaks out clearly against the "harlot spirit". The one who is not possessed of a "harlot spirit", let him be at peace!
Throwing this out there:
Basing on some of the commentary I have been reading on here: Should testimonials of positive experiences with an institution [outweigh, be of equal value, be of lesser value] to testimonials of negative experiences with the same?
The past week, one major focus in U.S. news was the Pope’s visit and the manner in which he addressed the sex abuse scandal. Now if the Pope or other devout Catholics were to dismiss the claims made by these abuse victims as just simply false claims made out of bitterness toward the church, would it be right? I don’t think so.
How much importance should be given to the voices of dissent? Clearly, these voices also have a right to be heard and should not be silenced by forms of verbal intimidation.
Penguin: Excellent question. I have been following the issue of the Mormon sect being overwhelmed by the
"forces of the state" out there in the US of A. Your question is very relevant. Somehow it seems to me that the "intimidation" on this blog has been by those who have been "abused" and those who have automatically taken sides with them. I hope you are not such a "biased" personality.
My counter-question is: How does one set up an "objective" framework for discussion of such issues? Any suggestions?
Penguin and Elf: One of the first things I noticed re: the situation in Texas was the frequent omission of the group's origins. From what information I have been able to gather, the group at the "Texas polygamist ranch" (as it has been referred to in the media) is part of the FLDS Church--Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ Latter Days Saints. The group emerged in the 1930s when its founding members left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The split occurred largely because of the LDS Church's renunciation of polygamy and its decision to excommunicate practitioners of plural marriage in southern Utah and northern Arizona.
In other words, this is an "offshoot" group--which brings us back to the original post in a major way. I have NO doubt that there have been many people who have either grown up in SF or joined later in life who have had wonderful experiences. Daniel Strubar and Crystal both have posted on this thread recounting their personal, positive involvement with SF. Daniel is still a member; Crystal is not. Elf, even you have mentioned your positive experiences with SF.
I cannot speak to those situations. I cannot and do not deny them. But that is not the point, and never really was the point of this post. My initial concern--it still is--is the methodolgy/tactics of the LOCAL GROUP HERE in our town. I see them operating much like the group in Texas. Out on their own--although officially affiliated with SF. Because of the lack of denominational oversight, they are able to operate in whatever way they see fit--and it appears they have.
So..."testimonials of positive experience..." are valid in their own group. However, since none of those experiences occured here --our local group-- those positive experiences do NOT negate the activities and attitudes we have seen/experienced. It's hard for me to give the positive experiences too much weight, since they didn't occur here, in this specific group.
Those of us that have "taken sides" have done so because the negatives expressed on this thread line up with the situation we have personally seen. We have not seen the positives. Now...if the group (current or former members) in our town wants to share with us, that would carry way more weight. So far, I haven't "heard" them say or seen them do much of anything that resembles Christianity/Christian behavior.
Penguin: No offense, but I don't give any credence to anything the Pope or the Catholic church has to say. But I do understand your analogy.
Elf: ...overwhelmed by the "forces of the state" I am not a big fan of "government," especially around this time of year (Apr 15), but I do see a need for someone to step into a situation where things like child abuse are suspected, i.e. child porography, imprisonment, phsyical and/or sexual abuse, etc. Surely you don't advocate those things in the name of "religious freedom?"
This whole thing seems pathetically sad to me. I have children of my own. I can’t even begin to imagine carrying them in my womb, spending all of those years raising them; loving them, playing with them, teaching them, watching them grow, (building a relationship with them) and then all of a sudden, have that relationship broken. It was stated that this girl is very intelligent with a “zeal and love for God”. My guess is that she didn’t get to be this way on her own. How did she become the person she is? Most likely, she is a reflection of her parents. Yet now she doesn’t have much of a relationship with them???? I know a lot of children who go off to college, become “of age”, and move out of their parents’ homes, etc (grow up) but they continue to have the same relationship with their family. Actually, I’m one of them. I do not attend the same church that my parents or siblings do. We go to different churches but we still are a family and spend time doing many different things together. But it really doesn’t matter what I think, it is God who instituted the family. He’s the one who placed this girl in her family to be raised, loved, and nurtured. From what I’ve read so far, it sounds as if this girl grew up in a loving home where she received sound Biblical teaching. So, why can’t she spend time with the very people, her family, who love her the very most?
Elf: You asked for a list of “do’s and don’ts”; for Christians it’s called the Bible. “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Mat 7:12
And for you to use the word “cloying” to describe a parent’s love for their child is disturbing. Especially when you don’t know the family. All people have different ‘love languages’ for demonstrating love to family and friends. After all, isn’t that what God calls us to do, love one another?
Hi Keith,
I was wondering, how is it actually going with the girl and her family? I hope that despite everything, they are working towards a reconciliation. It goes without saying that regardless of the church anyone goes to, "Honour your Father and Mother" still applies. I find this a curious situation, because I come from a family of 5 children, and only two of us are in the church, or any church for that matter.However, there is no bad feeling any of us siblings, or our parents because of this.
Perhaps the issue here is not so much whether one church is GOOD and the other EVIL (and which one is which changes I'm sure, depending on who's looking at the matter)but the manner in which the whole matter evolved?And if this is the case, then there is much hope for reconciliation, which doesn't necessarily mean that anyone has to abandon their faith or beliefs, but just to be happy for each other, that either way, they are all looking to serve God in their lives.
Sorry, I have no experience in this stuff, I'm just kinda putting it out there. I would love to hear your perspective on this, dependent on your discretion of course.
Heather (and others that have asked): The lines of communication appear to be open between my friends and their daughter. They see each other from time to time. I don't want to say too much in a public forum; as long as there is conversation, there is always hope.
Sophie: you are correct in that this young woman was nutured in a very loving, caring Christian home. She was certainly not lacking a relationship with God or a local congregation prior to her indoctrination into SF. It is a heart-breaking situation, especially since she appears to have been convinced that her previous church and her family are outside of Christ. But as I've already said, we have "hope."
===
We've been studying the life of Joseph in our Sunday School class. I'm always moved at his words when he finally reveals himself to his brothers: "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Things look and ARE evil sometimes, but there is nothing God cannot use (and does us) to bring about His good and perfect will. Men--including leaders in a church--may think they are acting/working in their own wisdom, but they are mistaken. Prov 16:33 states: "The lot is cast into the lap, but its very decision is from the Lord."
1. LOWELL STREIKER: I have skimmed Lowell Streiker's book, I hope to read it in more detail in the future. I will say this however: it is IMPOSSIBLE for an outside scholar like Streiker to gain the same sense and perspective as true insiders. Impossible.
Someone here already made a good point about the church background of Streiker - he is from a very liberal religous tradition - the VERY TYPE of "christian" that SFs despise and have no use for, except in this extreme situation where he was hired and gave a favorable report about him and so they buy his book and appreciate him.
2. OUTSIDERS: In fact, the SFs would seem to lump ALL outsiders in the same category as Streiker - religous harlots who we must be kept at a distance and fought with if needed. They make no distinction between catholics, baptists, Streiker's church, non-denominationalists, etc - all are part of the Harlot and all lack true understanding and therefore one must cut ties as much as possible and not read outside books and sing outside songs, etc.
3. THIS BLOG: I find it interesting that the only consistent representation, from the SFs, is from elf_asura. What happened to Daniel Strubhar and others who commented? Were they asked to not participate here? Are they fearful of being caught by their leaders and punished in some way? Have the leaders of the local Oklahoma group told their members to stay away from this discussion?
It would have been very helpful to have some voices other than Elf's here - he is clearly at least partly in this discussion for his own amusement and love of bantering, and there is a lack of depth and seriousness in his responses that simply add credence to the notion that this is a very unusual church group (at best; that's being nice on my part).
There is nothing that has been reported here that leads me to believe that the SFs have truly progressed in a more biblical and Spirit-led direction. On the contrary, this blog discussion has reinforced the impressions that I developed a number of years ago.
To any current SFs who are reading this blog (and I know there are many of you) - I hope you can thoughtfully consider the beliefs of the SFs and measure their beliefs and practices against the Scriptures - especially the direct teachings of Jesus and Paul. My experience was that many insiders COULD see some of the internal shortcomings and issues, but they were
1. afraid to leave
2. afraid of the shunning that would result from leaving, from "friends" and their own family.
3. very hard pressed to shake off the notion that they could find good fellowship elsewhere. This sense that they have among them about being Body of Christ and no other group being as good as them - is very hard to come to terms with for insiders who have doubts and questions. It takes considerable courage and initiative to pick up and leave such a system, and such courage is sorely lacking through out Christendom.
There are many disciples found through out many different churches in the world. Even though they may not use some of the language or terms or idioms that the SFs use, they wholly love the Lord, want to live completely as disciples, and are surrendered in all areas of their lives to Him.
The Truth: You sound like a parrot and a stuck record. You do not seem to understand what is being discussed. People like me and Heather are stating unambiguously that we have not experienced what you "claim" to have experienced. If you did experience it, it is sad. I pity you because it seems it has left a deep scar in you. Of course, it is for those in the SF who scarred you to accept that they did "wrong" if they did "wrong". I am not willing to take you at face-value (you are just a demagogue like me!!! :-)) unless you bring out the "specifics" of what YOU suffered instead of belabouring the entire Church. You claim people are afraid to leave the Church. Your generalised statements are exceedingly amusing. All those who were brave like you and unafraid to leave left in the early 1990s and are having good fellowship among themselves and in other churches. Didn't you know that?
But then again, who knows, you might have been a cantankerous and abrasive person like me and got his just desserts when you tried to be the big man who could teach everyone else everything!!! :-)
I think Daniel Strubhar and others do not have the time or energy to spend on conversing on blogs unlike me. I dwell in the blogosphere a lot and live on Second Life, so let's not have you making assumptions that remain only amusing.
SOPHIE: Concerning the girl and her family, I can tell you one thing right away. I remember when I shifted away from the mainstream and orthodox Syrian churches my family comes from, my parents were full of love and understanding and gave me liberty to move as I wanted to in the Lord Jesus. They did not enter into abrasive theological discussions with me and try to convince me I was WRONG. However, I know that if they had attacked my new-found "faith" as "evil", I would have not bothered to respect them much, even though I used to tell them that their Orthodox faith and practices are "evil". To tell you the truth, this "born-again" fundamentalist evangelicalism of a certain stream of Christianity does not exist as a dominant doctrine (thank God for that!) in the Orthodox Churches. It is enough to be baptised as a child into the community (ecclesia) to be saved. When I was baptised as an adult, if my parents had attacked me, I would not have cared about them so much. But I have realised that their love is constant whatever be my "faith" and that love included granting me total freedom/responsibility on my part for my faith-life. My parents had a "real" faith in God who they trusted in and knew would take care of me wherever I went to or whomever I went with. Perhaps this liberty is essentially what is being denied to this girl and hence her rejection of the prior beliefs and values with which her parents tried to condition her.
And perhaps, the things the parents can and ought to do in such circumstances are:
1. Build the bridges with their daughter's church if they have the grace to do it.
2. Believe in God that no evil will come upon their daughter.
3. Ask God whether or not this is from Him - if it is from Him, they will be able to do nothing however much they pray or murmur and complain.
4. Stop attacking her beliefs and her Church in an Inquisitional manner.
This is the opportunity for them to re-learn and strengthen their own faith afresh. God allows such situations into our lives and it is good if we recognise such opportunities when they come to grow in Christ.
Shalom!
PS - you dont have to take any of the above seriously because I am just the "fool" out here on this blog. :-)
Yukon Bound: You are "outside" the Church despite your claims to know what is going on in the Church. In our private chats, you have been consistently surprised at the liberal manner in which the Church is moving today and the freedom in Christ that we enjoy without losing our commitment to His Commandments.
You were one of those who were unhappy in the Church for your own personal reasons which I do not want to contest. But you are really as much "outside" as Streiker, so your comments do not have much weight either except that you have as much an axe to grind about things that happened more than a decade ago including grudges you hold against specific persons in the Church.
I would suggest that you grow up. If there are disciples in other churches, it is well and good. As Paul says: Whether they preach Christ out of envy or for their own profit, we rejoice that Christ is at least named by them.
SF minds its own business. SF does not go about telling other Christian Churches how to go about their business unlike many of the fundamentalists out here who think they know how to correct other churches. For instance, did anyone notice Keith's comment about the Pope and the Catholic church? Just as he cares tuppence for the Pope and the Catholic Church, SF too has the right to care a tuppence about other churches if at all that is what SF beleives. Fair enough?
By the way, Streiker was one who counselled many of the Jonestown survivors and painting him black as a liberal etc, does not take away his authority as one who understands and has experience with victims of cults and hence is equipped to write about a group which ignoramuses call a sect. I would have respected you guys if you called us a "sect" but cult is too far out and proves the extent of your ignorance about SF. Yukon may act clever with his phrase "cultistic tendencies" but that can be applied to his own fellowship too I am sure unless it is a truly liberal fellowship in which case he cannot throw mud at Streiker. :-)
Elf:
You stated, “I hope you are not such a "biased" personality.
Would you place me in the biased category if I showed a greater understanding for the ‘positive experience’ group?
Would you place me in the biased category if I showed a greater understanding for the ‘negative experience’ group?
From your comment above, I am inferring that your definition of “biased” is “those who have been (1) "abused" and those who have (2) automatically taken sides with them.” Per this definition, I can state that I am not a “biased” personality. Please correct me if I made a wrong conclusion about your idea of the term ‘biased.’ I am also interested in knowing your definition of an “unbiased personality.”
How does one set up an "objective" framework for discussion of such issues? Any suggestions? I don’t think it is possible to set up an objective framework for discussion of religious issues. Religion and faith is a very personal journey. Of course, you know this already. Specifically to the incident at hand (an estrangement of parents and daughter), it would be very difficult to even attempt an ‘objective’ framework because no one individual has access or is privy to all the information. We also have to keep in mind that personal experiences are not absolutes. And those engaging in discussion (and the silent readers) bear the responsibility of doing some critical thinking of their own when it comes to separating out ‘emotions’ and ‘facts’ from personal experience testimonies. However one thing that is absolutely necessary/critical in an intellectually propelled discussion is that all voices (in this case the positive experience group and the negative experience group) be heard and that these voices are not stifled or silenced by verbal intimidation.
Now coming from a purely academic point of view, it would be interesting to see the outcome if those from ‘positive experience’ and ‘negative experience’ groups were asked to serve as the best possible advocates/spokespersons for the opposing group.
Penguin: Thou doth warm my cockles as it were! And I am not sarcastic (for a change).
You said: "It would be very difficult to even attempt an ‘objective’ framework because no one individual has access or is privy to all the information. We also have to keep in mind that personal experiences are not absolutes." True and yet this helplessness felt all around is exactly that wonderful place whereat all can begin to engage in a dialogue towards understanding instead of diatribe.
My definition of an "unbiased" personality is one who responds to the exchanges here exactly as you do. Thank you.
The Indian philosopher Jiddu Krishnamurti once said (I have had the privilege of having listened to him and read him): "People are not afraid of the unknown - they are fearful of leaving behind the known."
I think this lies at the heart of the issue at hand on the part of both the SF and those who are baying for SF blood. Neither is willing to leave "known" spaces and engage with the other in a spirit of "welcoming". Leaving the known would mean laying aside or suspending temporarily one's pet doctrines, dogma, demands and expectations, and to embark on a journey of listening and understanding. Who is sufficient for such things?
Therein lies the tragedy.
Just another something that came to my mind as I was going through this blog. Man, what a strange long trip it has been - to quote the Grateful Dead.
However, I wanted to put up these links because this character called Griess I found had been appearing ever so often on this blog. Most people here seem to have swallowed his "story". But it is only fair to read the other side of the "story". Hence, my contribution via these links:
www.norweger.at
http://www.norweger.at/images/stories/Static/pdfs/info_english.pdf
Since this blog is becoming a sort of archive about the pros and cons of hitchhiking with or without the SF, let it roll.
Elf:
I am in agreement with the ideas that you presented in the comment that you posted on April 22, 2008 12:40 AM . What are your suggestions on creating a welcoming spirit within this discussion group?
Penguin: I am in Delhi on urgent work but I have concrete suggestions on how we can all seek to understand each other. Can I post them on Friday? Please bear with me.
Elf:
Till Friday then:).
HERE WE GO AGAIN. I am glad to hear - from Keith - that the family is having some improvement in their relationships. Since the girl is now married into the group, however, it is difficult to see her coming back out.
To my friend, Elf, in reply to your points -
I am truly and sincerely grateful, at this point, for this ongoing discussion. What I have read here, in private communications with others, and at the google group HAVE ALL CONFIRMED that the SFs have really continued to go off the deep end, that they have bizarre and unscriptural tendencies, and that any spiritually minded person who is biblically knowledgeable should be able to discern the problems with this peculiar little self-centered church group.
"Yukon Bound: You are "outside" the Church despite your claims to know what is going on in the Church. In our private chats, you have been consistently surprised at the liberal manner in which the Church is moving today and the freedom in Christ that we enjoy without losing our commitment to His Commandments."
I AM GLAD FOR SOME of the positive developments that I have heard of, from you and from others. But then I also hear reports such as the one about your own Pope, Kare Smith, saying he wants to "kill all arabs"! You are not the only person that I am in touch with about the current internal developments among the SFs. My response to you was that, in the specific country where you live, the SF churches SEEM to MAYBE have considerable more freedom and slack - especially compared to N America and Europe.
"You were one of those who were unhappy in the Church for your own personal reasons which I do not want to contest. But you are really as much "outside" as Streiker, so your comments do not have much weight either except that you have as much an axe to grind about things that happened more than a decade ago including grudges you hold against specific persons in the Church."
YES I BECAME "UNHAPPY" OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS, but not for the reasons you state and not in the whining, self-pitying manner that you imply over and over. There is no comparison between my years as an insider, and the outside scholarly at-a-distance approach of Lowell Streiker, and you are blind and ignorant to make such a comparison. It was clear that the SFs were moving more and more in an unscriptural direction, with an undue focus on their own group, their own high thoughts about themselves compared to other Christians, their trigger-quick willingness to bash outsiders, their incorrect understandings about the divinity & humanity of Jesus, etc. And yes, there were certain individuals among them who personified this error - more than others. I recognized in them the error of their thinking and the fact that their erroneous thinking was not being properly handled by those who should have handled it graciously and in a timely manner.
"I would suggest that you grow up. If there are disciples in other churches, it is well and good. As Paul says: Whether they preach Christ out of envy or for their own profit, we rejoice that Christ is at least named by them."
THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXHORTATION :-) to grow up! I am glad that you are willing to entertain the possibility of there being disciples in other churches. In the not too distant past, ALMOST NO ONE was willing to entertain such a possibility. Perhaps some, like you, have finally grown up into mature understanding. But I know that even still, this is not the dominant mode of thinking among the SFs. To this day, they persist in their beliefs about their exclusive discipleship, their exclusive beliefs about being in the Bride of Christ, etc.
"SF minds its own business. SF does not go about telling other Christian Churches how to go about their business unlike many of the fundamentalists out here who think they know how to correct other churches. For instance, did anyone notice Keith's comment about the Pope and the Catholic church? Just as he cares tuppence for the Pope and the Catholic Church, SF too has the right to care a tuppence about other churches if at all that is what SF beleives. Fair enough?"
NO, SFs DOESN'T TELL OTHER CHURCHES about how to go about their business. The SFs, rather, were/are much more interested in bashing and calling names and cutting themselves off from outsiders. (The SFs would have little to offer outside churches, in all honesty, based on this lengthy discourse that many of us have been having and all that has come to light about the SFs here and elsewhere).
"By the way, Streiker was one who counselled many of the Jonestown survivors and painting him black as a liberal etc, does not take away his authority as one who understands and has experience with victims of cults and hence is equipped to write about a group which ignoramuses call a sect. I would have respected you guys if you called us a "sect" but cult is too far out and proves the extent of your ignorance about SF. Yukon may act clever with his phrase "cultistic tendencies" but that can be applied to his own fellowship too I am sure unless it is a truly liberal fellowship in which case he cannot throw mud at Streiker. :-)"
HE IS A WORTHY COMMENTATOR, I WOULD AGREE. MY POINT WAS THAT an outside scholar, however experienced, can never gain the full sense of the group in the way that an insider could who had been around and deeply involved for many years. I respect his book, I respect his conclusions even. And you are fluent enough in English (paragraph structure notwithstanding) to realize that I did not really throw mud at Streiker, I just pointed out a couple of facts and the BLATANT DISCREPANCY of the SFs being willing to accept the judgment of a "harlot" who they would otherwise have no use for.
As far as "cultistic tendencies" goes, that's the label that I am comfortable with using. Get over it. Would you rather that I use the word "cult"? Your loud and belligerent responses do not detract at all from my definitive experiences with this group, and with the impressions that I formed. ESPECIALLY since our experiences are in two entirely different continents, with entirely different groups of people, and even in different frames of time.
Others would say "sect" or "cult", but I apply the label that I think is most suitable, "cultistic tendencies". Get over it. To me, 'sect' doesn't quite capture the unique flavor and unbiblical distinctiveness of SOME dimensions of the SFs as a group.
ELF, it's highly intriguing that you keep coming back here and posting. You seem to be a glutton for punishment. Every time you post, your rickety and inflamed arguments get shot down by 2-3 or more people, and it barely takes any brainpower to do so. You continue to give off a negative and strange impression about the church that you belong to. Maybe you should take a break, get another fellow-SF to take over, for a time, and maybe there will be increased understanding.
Perhaps you have a psychiatric condition?
Peace to you, my brother. May your agitated soul find rest in your scandinavian songs and idioms and "kill all arab" types of exhortations and fleshly immature leadership and harlot-free fellowship!
:-)
"...self-proclaimed, self-congratulatory ltimate "authority.."
OK. Elf, you're guilty of some of the same stuff, so don't try to get all sanctimonious on us. Some of us remember how you deceptively came into this discussion.
All right, here's the deal. DIAL IT BACK A NOTCH...Everybody!!!! I'm within a gnat's eyebrow of shutting this thing down...if not at a minimum, setting up moderated comments. Elf---you seem to love the fact that you can come here and speak your mind as often and as loud as you like--and I've been patient with you, but you do not extend the same courtesy on your own blog. A little bit of a double standard, don't you think? In fact, I just attempted to view your blog and it has now been set up to allow only "invited readers." If you are not willing to open your blog to any and all bloggers/posters, we can shut this down in a heartbeat. You still want a voice over hear? It's your choice.
Moderated comments means EVERYTHING comes through me first, and IF WANT TO, I let it pass through. If you want to continue this conversation, well, you know what to do....
Yukon, Excellent response to Elf. That's what we fans of wrestling call a BODY SLAM. But then he had it coming, didn't he? :-)
Elf, You just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper. Your latest immature non-response to Yukon just demonstrates how quickly you wither in the light of reasoned argument and argument. You seem to care very much what he and others write to you in response, so to say "nobody cares" is pure dishonesty.
You probably do need to take a break.
Keith, Come on, you know you are enjoying this back and forth! :-)
But I agree about dailing it back a notch or two, as I think others have encouraged here before.
Elf: "...The end is nigh. Period. Over and out. Ca va? Goodbye." I don't believe it for a minute. You can't stand the thought of not being here on your soapbox.
I've read the "Griess" links/majority of the website. I have some other things going this eveing. I'll get back to this as soon as I can.
Keith:
Amidst the hullabaloo, there were some good discussions and exchange of ideas going on. So please consider leaving this thread open for the time being. Thank you.
Elf:
I hope that you do not walk away from here with the wrong notion that there were people ganging up on ‘SF.’ I really do not think this to be the case at all. The (A) church will never be undermined by people expressing their opinion of it. I am sure there are people visiting here who genuinely wanted to learn more about this church. For many have encouraged those with positive experiences to come forward and let their voices be heard as well. Though you raised many legitimate concerns and valid points, these concerns were clouded by some of your comments/treatment towards the ones on here who had different opinions than yours. I respect the love that you have for ‘SF’. And yet --- I truly hope that you sit and reflect on your actions/words on this site as well. Would you have talked to (treated) the brothers/sisters in your fellowship in the same manner that you did to some of the individuals that were on here?
I am still genuinely interested in hearing your opinion “on concrete suggestions on how we can all seek to understand each other.” So before your final exit, please do come back and post it. Thank you.
Walter Lippman’s (1939) writes in his essay “The Indispensable Opposition” that freedom of discussion (‘ the give and take of opinions’) is the best “…system for finding the truth. It may not produce the truth, or the whole truth all the time, or often, or in some cases ever. But if the truth can be found, there is no other system which will normally and habitually find so much truth.”
“The opposition is indispensable. A good statesman, like any other sensible human being, always learns more from his opponents than from his fervent supports. For his supporters will push him to disaster unless his opponents show him where the dangers are. So if he is wise he will often pray to be delivered from his friends, because they will ruin him. But though it hurts, he ought also to pray never to be left without opponents; for they keep him on the path of reason and good sense.”
“people are infantile enough to judge what is posted in terms of ‘tone’, ‘abrasiveness’ etc, instead of getting into the meat of the matter.”
vs.
people are infantile enough to judge what is posted in terms of ’bitterness’,’loftiness’ etc, instead of getting into the meat of the matter.
There is really no point in this, is there? The music is slowly fading. The merry-go-round is coming to a halt. Is it really time to get off our high horses and bid adieu?
Elf, nice try in using "www.norweger.at" as a source, I assume you do know it is the website for the Smith's Friends group in Austria?
The only case where Friedrich Griess was condemned by the court was in regards to breaches of copyright (posting literature from Smith's Friends online).
Elf, you are a fraud and a perfect example as to what is wrong with SF. You entered this discussion with a lie and continued to lie until confronted. This most certainly denounces J.O. Smith's assertion that one can overcome "conscious sin"--something the Apostle Paul stated he himself had not done, e.g. Php 3:12. You have proved to be not only conscious of your lies, but quite adept at perpetuating them. I guess J.O. Smith was wrong or you are not a true disciple of SF (or both).
I read the norweger.at link--every page. It is comical; very poorly written, much like your comments. On one page, the implication is made that the Griess and Koller families are good friends prior to Wiltrud's entrance into SF. However, on another page, the statement is made that "Wiltrud Griess first got to know Dr. Koller's family at a university Norwegian course." Inconsistent.
All of the court documents simply proved to me that SF was afraid of what Mr. Griess was saying. There are literally TONS of websites that denouce groups like the JWs and the Mormons and you don't see them dragging everybody into court. They obviuosly don't care what people think about them and/or don't feel threatened by them. (This last statement is in no way an endorsement of these groups.)
As I've already stated, I find it interesting that almost immediately as soon as I posted to your blog, which was already set to moderate comments, you implemented a "by invitation only" requirement for posting, something that was NEVER done to you here. I think you didn't like it that you were not as anonymous as you thought you were. I also think the fact that I now have cached pages of pics of you and your family, you felt "invaded" so to speak...which once again brings us back to the original point of the post.
You didn't like it that someone had invaded your family and that is exactly how the family feels here. Only problem is they can't set things up for "moderation" or "invitation only."
You are a coward. I suspect that SFs in your area are not pleased with your "performance" here and have put the pressure on you to back off. They should. You are menace to whatever good reputation they may have.
You are not welcome here--especially as long as you lock down your own website from comments. You do not add to the conversation. You are a smart-aleck, angry man with VERY poor grammar/writing skills. You have claimed on more than one occasion that you are going to "move on." I'll help you out. I've deleted your most recent comments and will continue to delete any comments in the future. You are a NUT! Tell Dipti I said "hello!"
Keith, Penguin, The Truth, and all the others -
I assure you that this has been a highly intriguing conversation, over the last few weeks. Elf, The Truth, Penguin, Keith, Harold, 2b2bnot have all contributed worthwhile perspectives. Some have been harder to read and appreciate than others. That was a great Lippman quote from Penguin, and reflects a hope that I always have when I am "arguing" with someone - that somehow we can get to greater understanding of the truth through the conversation.
A couple of points:
1. In my experience, the SFs were never truly interested in open debate and discussion. I remember MORE THAN ONE brother telling me that we should be cautious about anyone who gave the impression that they had "understanding" from the Bible that was different than Bratlie, Aslakse, JO Smith (church leaders). People who asked questions about the church's beliefs were looked down upon, and treated as second class.
2. The GRIESS stuff has always been somewhat of an unknown quantity to me. I DID read the article that ELF posted, I am willing to take the daughter at her word about incest, psychiatric illness, etc. But that does not deny the legitimacy of at least SOME of what Griess has said/done. Perhaps there is much that he has said/done that has been over the top and inappropriate. But the same could be said of the SFs. There is SOMETHING about their response to outsiders (i.e. Elf's response, the OK people) that makes people strongly feel that they need to take on such narrow-mindedness and unChristlike attitudes.
Yukon: I also thought some of Mr. Griess' actions might be "over the top," but we are talking about his daughter. I'm not sure how I would act if that were my child. Even Elf seems to be quite protective of his own family; I imagine Mr. Griess feels the same.
Re: the alleged incest--two things:
(1) There is something that just doesn't ring true there, can't quite put my finger on it. If things were so bad at home, I would think the Griess family would welcome Witrud's abscence
(2) If the incest actually happened --not saying it didn't, but why isn't anyone interested in pursuing charges there? (Maybe they have and it just wasn't mentioned.)
Just some thoughts.
Penguin, It really is unfortunate the more current SFs haven't contributed here. Are you with the SFs? What is your experience with them, if so? I am honestly interested in hearing from all sides on this issue. I have corresponded by private email with some current SFs and it has been helpful, though I cannot say that my concerns about the group have been allayed.
Keith,Regarding the Griess Family: I am personally willing to take the daughter's word about what she experienced in childhood. How tragic, and she was definitely in a situation where she needed help. I am sure that, in their own way, the local SFs were able to help her and minister to her.
In such a vulnerable condition that she was in, she was unlikely to question their beliefs and take the time and effort to study - in depth - what they really believed. Being in the level of pain that she must have been in, she probably was warmed and encouraged by the 'love' that she experienced.
This is the way of certain church groups. As long as you don't question their beliefs, practices, etc - they will openly embrace you and make you feel that you are part of something really special and that you will never find such "special-ness" anywhere else.
Regarding Elf, I overall agree with Keith's assessment - as blunt and harsh as it was.
Elf has conducted himself quite poorly here, starting with his initial deceptive tactics and his subsequent arrogance and belligerence.
Elf, like the Bereans, we are called to examine the teachings that we hear - regardless of who is teaching and preaching.
I am no more an "authority" on doctrine + Scripture than anyone else here. But I FLATLY REJECT the proposition that men like you and Kare Smith and other "leaders" somehow have more understanding than other lesser mortals amongst the SFs. I examined what I heard and saw by light of the scriptures. I am sure that I did things imperfectly.
Anyway, it seems like your time here has probably come to an end, and it's all your own doing and you have now irrevokably tarnished the image of your church group. As an exSF, it is actually somewhat sorrowful to me that the only regular participant in this dialogue has been someone like you. There are/were far better people among them who could probably give a much better sense of what the SFs are like.
Hello y'all,
I know I haven't really contributed anything to this discussion, but I have been reading it regularly. I was really excited when Yukonbound first told me about this discussion, because it seemed like it was a fair and open forum, and the really virulent anti-our church people weren't contributing. I was excited because I thought that would be that a true and open, rational discussion was going to happen. I have to admit that I am saddened at the tone this forum took on, and this was despite Keith's moderation. Also a little ashamed that the virulence and lack of logic came from within my church this time.
But please Keith, could you let this blog continue, if you have time to moderate it a little more severely than you have done? I still think this is a good place for discussion. What I have drawn from it, is that this isn't an "us vs. them" issue. The most of us believe in varying degrees and with varying practices in the exact same thing. Originally our concern was the situation with the girl. Now I am not sure what.
What about if we all sent in questions that we would like to see debated to Keith, and then he could post then and we could kinda go through them in an orderly fashion? Does that sound reasonable?
Heather: The blog will remain open, except for comments from Elf. As they come in, I'll delete them. I didn't/don't see his latest contributions as benefiting the discussion at this time.
I know there are many current SFs following this thread. I would like to hear from any of you regarding the statement that Kare Smith (worldwide leader of Smiths Friends) made regarding how he wants to "kill all arabs".
What was the context of the statement? How was it received by those who heard it professed? (i.e. when Barack Obama's pastor said "God Damn America" in a sermon, his congregation applauded and whooped and hollered in approval).
Since this incident seems to have ACTUALLY happened, and since it seems that Kare Smith never publicly apologized for such a statement, I would like to know how current SFs could continue in a church that follows the lead of such a person?
I would add that
1. I hope Kare Smith never made such a statement. It certainly would seem very unChristlike and certainly not like other leaders that I knew among the SFs.
2. If he did make it, and apologized later for it, that would be good to know.
Thanks.
I am in complete agreement with Heather’s reasoning. Some issues that I could pull out from going back over the general post and some of the comments in this thread are:
Issue#1: Is ‘SF’ a cult or a legitimate Christian church (sect)? [Social/Religion]
Issue#2: Was there a violation of the separation of church/state principle in a U.S. public school? [legal question] [What constitutes a violation of this principle?]
Issue#3: At what age does first amendment freedom of religious rights (in U.S.) kick in for an individual? [Are there case law that will provide us with guidance in attacking this issue?]
Was there an infringement of parental rights to direct his/her child’s religious education (based on U.S. law)? [legal question] [general discussion – what constitutes an infringement?]
Issue#4: Can a church be responsible for the estrangement of child from parent or vice versa? [Ethical/Social]
Issue #5: In which manner and what role should a church play in conflict resolution between members (in this specific instance ‘the daughter’) and non-members (in this specific instance ‘the parents’)? What obligations (if at all) does a church have to the outside community [Ethical/Social]
Issue #6: The parent-child relationship (expectations, obligations, rights etc etc on each side) [Social/Cultural/Psychology]
Some issues above would probably only be able to be discussed/debated in generalities as we do not have factual information and I think we should respect the privacy/feelings of those personally involved in this matter.
Please feel free to correct the issues from above. Please feel free to add any ones that I have missed as well.
Keith: As “freedom of discussion improves our own opinions” (Lippmann), I am of the opinion that Elf should be given a chance to contribute in these discussions as well if he still wants to participate. To be fair, Elf did contribute some valid points to the discussion though these points might have gotten lost in the personal attacks. But as this is your blog, of course it is your call to make.
Penguin: Good questions. Harold may be a good source for several of those. A couple of them may fall into some "gray" areas, but opinions would be interesting.
re: Elf (aka "Av"). I've thought about this for a while. My decision to cut him off was/is based alot on his initial entry into this discussion. Although he apologized (sorta), I still sensed a disengenious tone in many of his posts. I also didn't take too kindly to his double standard of restricting comments on his own blog, while expecting to have full rein here. As you put it--it's his blog--but he shouldn't expect anymore than he's willing to give.
I still think it rattled him a bit that I commented on his blog. We'll see. He may contact me; if he does, we might work something out. From what I saw of his own blog, though--I think he just likes to nitpick at things (especially here in the USA) that he disagrees with from halfway around the globe.
Yukonbound2:
Regarding that statement by Kaare Smith. I can give you my personal opinion and perspective on the matter. I've never heard it discussed bu Kaare at any other time than the Initial mention in that one meeting. There is a DVD of it available. Maybe someone could dig it up and find out the exact phrasing, because at this point we're all going on hearsay. From what i can remember of the meeting (I was there) he mentioned it in a conversation about the fulfillment of the prophesies in Revelations and the Old Testament about the re-establishment of the nation of Israel. He was talking about how when he was a boy, he heard that there was war in Israel (I think the Yom Kippur War) and was so excited about the fulfillment of the prophesies that he phoned up the Israeli embassy and asked if he could join the army, to help keep Israel free and the Jews alive. He said that phrase in a specific context, related to a specific time in his life, and to a specific war. It was not a general phrase, applied loosely as a life-philosophy.
This is my memory of a meeting that was a number of years ago, and memories are always suspect. It was definitely unwise phrasing, especially considering the mixed, international audience. Individuals seem to have the tendency to interpret their god's words, God's words, or other people word's according to their culture I've noticed. I would definitely never take this phrase to be a sentiment that even a minority of people in our church would agree to. If applied in a general sense, it would certainly call into question that whole "For God so loved the world" thing. I would (and did, at the moment of hearing it spoken) attribute it to a sentiment that is reflective of one man, at one time in his life, in a specific situation.
To provide a counterpoint: Although I have total respect for Keith, and am thankful that he is providing his blog here as a discussion forum, some of the sentiments, or sentences on his other blog posts (regarding Muslims, women, Anne Coulter etc.) are utterly shocking to me as a Christian and a Canadian, and if taken out of context and divorced from the dry wit I'm sensing from Keith, could be regarded as dangerous, shocking, and disrespectful.
Basically I think it depends on perspective, the cultural background you grow up in, the situation and context in which a thing has been said, etc.
(for instance, norwegian humour is often shockingly ill-bred and racist for my canadian sensibilities, as is american humour) ( and YES I am making SWEEPING generalizations, just to make a point)
But I can't deny that my personal opinion is that someone who often speaks to an international audience could be a little more circumspect. However, as I am the reigning Empress Supreme of shoving my own foot down my throat, and regularly am force-fed my own words, I really can't give a conclusive opinion on this. The best I can make of it is to take it as an exhortation for me to be more serious about what I say. Like the verses in James 3, verse 2 or there abouts that my father ever so often reminds me of..
"For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body." (NKJV)
Seeing as how that last bit is a conditional sentence...that gives me a a lot of hope for myself, to work on being more the person God wants me to be!
Unlike Heather, I was not at the Brunstad conference and "Focus On Israel" meeting, but was watching it via satellite telecast in my "home church".
I found the comment to be appauling. Kare said it with glee, in the context that heather portrayed.
That he would've loved to gone and fight for Israel to "kill all arabs".
What is worse, is that people like Yakup Ozyurek (who is an Arab, whilst he lives Turkey he has roots from Iraq), went up to the pulpit in the general meeting afterwards and repeasted what Kare said, "I also want to kill all Arabs", to a rapturous cheer (just like Kare received when he made the comment the first time).
Also a brother from England repeated the same thing after Yakup, which is when Kare went up to the pulpit to try and tone things down, saying that "he loves Arabs too and there are Arab brothers and sisters in the church". A bit too late, he should've retracted his comment straight after making it.
As someone who is Christian and from a Middle Eastern background, I found his comment appauling.
There are many Arab Christians who have suffered enormously for their faith, yet Kare wants to have them all killed.
I generally found Brunstad to be quite a racist place (Norwegians are very arrogant), but this was over the top.
What is worse, is that the congregation will cheer on Kare no matter what he says on the pulpit.
Yukonbound: I have a very dear friend who attends ‘SF’ (hence my interest in this thread) and who would fall into the ‘positive experience’ category. He too has been following the comments on this thread. I myself have attended several meetings but I am not a regular attendee to know or comment on the internal dynamics between the members/non-members and am not well-versed with all of the doctrines of the church.
My impression of ‘SF’ has been that the fellowship is a close-knit one. And they place emphasis on unity between its members.
The other thought that has been going on in my mind is this: when one tries to determine whether a group is a cult or a legitimate church – one usually starts off by attempting to define what a cult is – why not start off by defining a legitimate Christian church.
I will respond in more detail to Heather's post (which I liked, by the way. I liked TheTruth's response also. Heather's rational, cool-headed, and gentle approach are a stark contrast from some. Also, the underlying humility in her post reminds me of others that I knew - and loved - among the SFs. )
Penguin, great idea. I will mull over it a bit, and may post thoughts later about a 'legitimate church'. Definitely I would like to hear what others have to say on the subject. Thanks for elaborating on your personal history also, it helps.
I was waiting, and very interested, to see what Elf was going to post about how we can all seek to understand each other. But I suspect that was another diversionary tactic on his part.
So I will take this opportunity to add some thoughts.
Keith: There are a lot of people in this community who know this girl. They have witnessed for themselves her behavior and that of this group. They have seen the hurt that this girl’s family has been through.
You can discuss things like Zac Poonen, Lowell Strieker and Kare Smith all day long but it all comes back to the idea that you will know them by their fruits, not their words. Is it the fruit of the Spirit when these children are taught to hate their parents, or when this group threatens other people with law suits? These are all observable behaviors that people have witnessed for themselves, including you.
Elf’s made suggestions on building bridges. However it is presumptuous of him to assume the family involved here has not tried to build bridges. His comments suggest that this group is just an innocent church trying to follow their religious beliefs.
I would like to revisit Elf’s comments on March 29 when he said: “Now, in SF, we preach and teach steadfastly the conditions of discipleship mentioned in Luke 14:25-33. Those who are with us are those who have understood these conditions.” Let’s look at what Luke 14:26 (NIV) says: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his mother and father, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters – yes, even his own life – he cannot be my disciple.”
How are the parents of this girl supposed to build bridges when SF is “steadfastly” teaching that she should hate her parents? Does Elf HATE his own wife and children?
Can any of the current or former SF tell me how you can take this verse and apply it to parents and not your own spouses and children? This is an example of taking scripture out of context and using it to serve the group’s ultimate purpose instead of God’s. Did Jesus really mean that we are to hate and separate from our parents? I don’t think so or he wouldn’t have also said in John 13 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
What I understand from Elf is that this only applies if your parents are not members of Smith’s Friends. In his own story, he has a great relationship with his parents because they don’t question his belief. However, he is quite ready to turn his back on them if they do.
Jesus’ statements here are again a hyperbole meant to say that we should love Him first. We can’t put anyone or anything before Him. The scriptures are full of statements by Jesus about how we are to treat others with love and respect. So to take this one verse and use it alone as the “condition of discipleship” is dangerous. But this must be true because the behavior of the local group and the girl is consistent with Elf’s own statements about discipleship.
Harold: How can one determine that a direct causal relationship exists between a church and parent-child estrangement? Based on my experience and observations of/with university life, I can state for a fact that there are many stressors that university students face [decision to change majors, failing grades, loss of scholarship, decision to drop out etc etc etc] that can and might lead to conflicts with parents/peers/relatives.
Re: Harold
How are the parents of this girl supposed to build bridges when SF is “steadfastly” teaching that she should hate her parents? Does Elf HATE his own wife and children?
Can any of the current or former SF tell me how you can take this verse and apply it to parents and not your own spouses and children?
-----------------------------------
You're perfectly correct in everything you have said above.
This verse was common in the SF doctrine and repeatedly mentioned meeting after meeting.
They apply the verse only to family who are OUTSIDE the "church". They do not apply this verse to one's family who are in the church.
The teaching of SF is very aggressive against those who still have contact with family who are outside the church. You will be condemned every meeting, with the preaching based on breaking contact and not having "fellowship" with family who are outside the church. Basically, to break all bonds and that the "church" is the true eternal family and not as they phrase "earthly bonds".
Relatives, families, especially if not in SF are viewed in great disdain.
Kare Smith even said in the Brunstad conference, if your son leaves the church, shut the door behind him. Pretty obvious.
I have had close association with SF and its members for several years. I was not born into this group, neither are my parents a part of SF. My association with the SF is entirely out of my own volition and based on what I experienced in the group.
Harold: I am curious as to what your interpretation of the verse (Luke 14:26) is? I know you wrote that Jesus said it as a hyperbole to illustrate that we should love Him more. But what is a person to do if his/her parents stand in the way of obeying God? Have you personally experienced such situations when you have had to make a choice between obeying the voice of God in your own heart and obeying your parents? Since you claim that SF members choose the way of ‘hate’ and estrangement specifically because of a prevalent teaching, I would like to know the methods that non-SF employ to resolve such situations.
I feel that differing opinions about the meaning of the phrase ‘obeying God’ is oftentimes a reason for conflict. These issues can range from watching TV to adult baptism. For instance, when kids start attending a ‘strange’ church, parents do not feel that going to meetings is the same as obeying God while the kid thinks that it is tantamount to what God wants accomplished. I experienced estrangement from my family as a direct effect of my involvement with SF. It was not an easy time for me or my family. The estrangement did not occur because I was ‘exhorted to hate’ my parents, as you or ‘The Truth’ are suggesting but rather due to a) lack of belief in my ability/maturity to make such a decision, and b) SF’s lack of social recognition as a ‘legitimate church’. Would you have advised me at that time to have followed the instruction of my parents rather than my own convictions in order to avoid estrangement?
I have attended SF meetings in multiple places and Luke 14: 25-33 has always been stressed as the basic requirement of discipleship. Nowhere have I heard these verses spoken to mean that there is a difference in standard between the ones ‘inside’ and ‘outside’ the SF. To the contrary, I have heard from parents who are happy when their own children make decisions in faith and contrary to the parents’ own ideas of what their children should do. I am in no way suggesting that such a difference in standard does not exist. If it does, it cannot be ascribed directly to the preaching from the pulpit.
The Truth: I am sorry that you have had negative experiences with SF during your time with them. I find the claim that people are being condemned in every meeting for associating with their relatives ‘outside’ the church to be inaccurate. During my time there, I have never experienced a preaching that condemned me for maintaining a relationship with people on the ‘outside’. I have several friends from my childhood, school and work who are not part of SF with whom I have meaningful and enriching relationships and I have never been forced (by anyone or by anything anyone said) to get rid of them. However, I did not grow up in SF and I do not claim to be an authority on the internal family dynamics of every SF family. There could be people who discourage having contact with non-SF and isolate their own children and family. However, these are personal decisions that parents come to in their wisdom (or lack there of).
On March 29th, 11:46am, Elf wrote the following. Check this out.
"Now, in SF, we preach and teach steadfastly the conditions of discipleship mentioned in Luke 14:25-33. Those who are with us are those who have understood these conditions.
There are also those in the world who have cut this Scripture out of their Bibles or "explained" it into ineffectiveness. But God helps us to preach it in season and out of season.
However, this does not mean that children should "dishonor" their parents. It means children (especially those of age) need not obey parents in matters of faith. For instance, some parents may get upset if their child wants to go on the China Mission and instead wish a successful life as an engineer for the same. It is my position that the child has every right to "dishonor" (lay aside) the parent's suggestions and go by the leading of the Lord and His Spirit.
Most of our parents know that we love them and always help them but they are also aware that we will not change our belief system and follow theirs. There will be an inflexibility on "matters of faith" but flexibility and love for parents in other matters."
Someone pointed out how SFs apparently exhort to hate our parents but not to hate our wife and children.
No, we are exhorted to hate (love God more than) everything that prevents us from following the leading of the Spirit. This includes parents, children, siblings and mostly our own life. "Not my will, but thy will be done". Not any time are we exhorted to bias this verse to apply against the non-SFs. Not a single time.
We are exhorted to stand before God's face in everything we do, and exhorted not to seek approval from the SF leaders.
I dont always follow the advice of my wife. Nor of my parents. Nor of my brother. A few times, I have asked for advice from SF leaders on some personal matter and laid their advice aside, with no consequences whatsoever, because I had found a better way.
We are all in a development. Not always are all ones family and friends in agreement on how one should follow God. As Rhea said, can Harold and Keith say how they resolve these inevitable conflicts? Or have they never faced them?
It appears the conversation has taken on a calmer tone; I appreciate that.
Lots of comments to address, and not a lot of time this morning, so just a couple of brief comments here.
As Harold pointed out, the girl that is the original focus of this post is well known to he and I. It is quite evident that people like 2b2bnot, Rhea, and Heather have had different experiences than those of YukonBound or TheTruth. I believe they --both sides-- are telling the truth as they have experienced it. Because of the diversity of the personal accounts, I tend to believe that what we are seeing here in our town is also true. I attribute that to the fact that SF is "unorganized," i.e. no denominational oversight or organization and therefore, each group/cell may act (for lack of a better word) quite differently. I honestly believe we have seen a kind of "rogue" behavior/tactics in our town.
The "hate your parents" debate would take more time than I have this AM, so I'll come back to it later. For now, Rhea asked if I had ever experienced "[dis]agreement on how one should follow God." Yes. But not to this extent. I attend a reformed-thinking Southern Baptist Church, while my parents attend a traditional SBC church. We disagree on points such as the meaning of predestination/election, limited or universal atonement. We DO agree on the essentials, i.e. Christ's atonement for our sins as the only means of salvation and salvation being a work of God—not man. Our differences are more along the lines of "how" we are saved.
What I believe makes my situation different is something I've pointed out previously (and this is just one point): J.O. Smith's belief that we can overcome "conscious sin." I believe that teaching is in direct contradiction to Scripture. The Apostle Paul stated that he couldn't do it—hadn't done—some thirty years after his conversion on the Damascus road. The Apostle John speaks of sin in the life of believers (1 John). I don't think this is something that we will ever be able to completely eradicate from our lives here on earth. That said, it doesn't mean I think we should give up. Paul said to continue to "run the race."
Jesus' ability to be tempted and not sin probably (tongue-in-cheek) had a WHOLE lot to do with the fact that He was God in the flesh.
I gotta run. It's Sunday morning and I have a class to teach. More later.
Heather: Thank you for jumping into the conversation. You say you don’t really know much, but you still seem to have emotions and a sense of right and wrong. I don’t believe the intent of this blog was to “attack, slander, malign” this group of people who truly believe they are seeking to have a relationship with God. However, as with any group of people, sometimes things can get ‘over the top’. What has been stated concerning this local group and the original topic of conversation was just stating the facts. This girl was in a public school classroom when she first heard of this group (from her teacher). Elf continues to defend the actions of this teacher even though he supposedly lives halfway around the globe. He asks if we aren’t suppose to have freedom of religion. I would answer, “Yes, but not in a public school classroom.” That is not freedom of religion. That is a captive audience. How is that “freedom”? He continues to ask about the girl’s “freedom” and insinuates that the parents don’t want her to have any. If they were that “controlling”, would she have ever been moved into a dorm room by her parents?
Elf: I have no idea where you reside, Keith seems to and continues to mention that you live somewhere other that where these events have occurred. So, my question for you is: How do you know what this girl’s parents have or have not done? And, how do you know what kind of home this girl grew up in?
You also stated previously that your parents did not question or “attack” your new found faith when you left their religion and joined SF. You said,
“…my parents were full of love and understanding and gave me liberty to move as I wanted to in the Lord Jesus. They did not enter into abrasive theological discussions with me and try to convince me I was WRONG. However, I know that if they had attacked my new-found ‘faith’ as ‘evil’, I would have not bothered to respect them much, even though I used to tell them that their Orthodox faith and practices are ‘evil’".
That sentence alone tells a great deal about who you are and what you think. A statement like that leads one to believe that you are an “all about me” kinda guy. It’s OK for you to tell your parents that their religion is evil, but they aren’t allowed to question your religion? There is a word for that, it’s called “hypocrite” You seem to expect things of others but you don’t do the same in return. What happened to the scripture “Do to others as you would have them do to you?”
Did I read that this girl’s parents moved her into a dorm at a local university? If so, wouldn’t that show that they respected her and her independence and her ‘freedom’? So why are you making assumptions that her parents were not letting her be independent to make her “own choices”? If she is living with this group, and has done away with her old relationships, and spends the majority of her time with the people in this group, where is the ‘freedom’ in that? Freedom from what? Her former relationships; people who care about her?
You also stated that the girl’s parents should trust that God wouldn’t let any harm come to their daughter. If the girl’s ‘freedom’ to have a relationship with anyone outside this group has been infringed upon, then harm has already come to their daughter and to the rest of their family as well. Yes, it is harmful to have your freedoms taken away.
You’ve mentioned in several places that there seems to be an ‘us against them’ mentality going on here. I really don’t believe anyone has ever been ‘out to get somebody or their group’. But other parents in this community are concerned because they don’t want the same thing happening to their child. Everyone in this community would love to see reconciliation and wholeness for all parties involved.
Sophie: Elf_Asura lives in India. I know his real name, but will do him the courtesy of not revealing it here. He fancies himself quite the "writer," but any casual perusal of this thread would prove otherwise. I have been to his blog and it is --at least the posts I viewed-- mainly a collection links to other blogs that he disagrees with.
He does not know this local family. He has never met the mother and father and has not had any type of interaction with them. He doesn't know them.
Based upon your comments, you have correctly ascertained the situation re: the girl and her parents.
Heather: Special kudos to you! When it ‘seems’ like others are attacking or questioning the things that one values and holds dear to one’s heart, the instinctive nature in all of us is to either ‘attack’ back or keep away. The patience and kindness that you have shown via your posts is exemplary. In fact, like the others have noted - it is quite refreshing. And I am thoroughly enjoying your writing style as well.
Hello everybody - It is exceptional that Keith bans Elf and then everybody speaks behind his back! How very un-Christian.
Fisherman: At risk of "spooking" someone, I can track the commenters here via their IP addresses, city/state, etc.
So in light of your comment: Don't kid yourself. Elf is very much aware what is being said. You surely don't believe he is able to stay away from here, do you? And for the record, there's nothing being said here what hasn't already or wouldn't be said to his face (figuratively speaking).
If you took the time to read the entire thread--a tiring endeavor, I know--you would see that Elf entered this discussion via lies. He continued to conduct himself in a manner that did not help the conversation, i.e. he used the thread to antagonize rather than engage others, so I told him he was not welcome to POST here. In the meantime, his own blog is set up to prevent comments whereas he (and anyone else) was free to comment here at will. Fair is fair.
Don't feel sorry for Elf--he's an angry man on a mission. I can't keep him from continuing to visit this site and reading the comments. In fact, I hope he continues to do so--he might learn something.
You are welcome to comment here as well if you would like to contribute to the conversation.
**UPDATE** It appears "The Fisherman" is more than likely the Elf. The comment came from the institution where he teaches. Nice try. Once again, the Elf does what he does best...deception. Is this another fine example of your beloved "friends" methods?
8^)>
Penguin: I understand your question. I too graduated from a university. So your question is, how can we be sure that this girl is not just experiencing a busy class schedule and many pressures of campus life that the parents have interpreted as being shunned and that this might possibly have nothing to do with this church?
My understanding of the things from this blog is this girl was introduced to the SF church by the leader of this local church who was also her high school teacher. Upon entering the local university she moved into the dorm. That sounds like the parents believed this girl had the “ability/maturity” to make her own decisions. I also read here that she moved out of the dorm and into this teacher’s home without the parents’ knowledge or consent. If this was a church that truly cared about families, is it reasonable for them to move her into their home? That is deceptive and it has nothing to do with theology. My understanding is that the parents did not raise objection to her attending this church, it was when they moved her into their home behind the parents’ backs that they began to object.
You assume that the parents are responsible for this estrangement and that this is just an innocent church trying to follow God. Have you ever considered that a legitimate church has a role to play in helping estranged families come together to honor God? I fail to see where taking a young college girl and moving her out of her dorm and into their home behind the parents back does any honor to God.
Rhea: Your implication is that this girl had to live in this man’s home in order to obey God; and because the parents objected to this church’s behavior that they are standing in her way of following God. Real churches don’t destroy families; they help build them.
You spoke about your “estrangement” from your parents. Did you have to move into the home of your church leader in order to obey God? Tell me, how did your parents try to keep you from obeying God? When was the last time you showed love and respect to your parents by just spending some time with them? Is it Christ-like to turn your back and shun your parents because of their beliefs? How can you show them Christ in your life if you don’t spend time with them?
You asked how I would have advised you in your situation. Not knowing all the details, I would have at least encouraged you to talk to your parents and examine all the evidence or facts that they may have. They may have legitimate concerns that should be addressed. Maybe you need to back away from the church or group and give yourself some time to think and pray about it away from ALL outside influences. Did you ever consider counseling with your parents? I would never tell you that you have to turn your back on your family and friends in order to follow God.
KEITH: Do not be too cocksure about yourself. Any fool can trace IP but don't be too cocksure!
The Elf has many friends.
By the way:
1. Why didn't you tell everyone on your blog how you/your friends tried to make this SF person lose his job at the school by using some "illegal" methods - you know - like trying to influence the administration to sack him? And that is why such people faced a legal threat in return for your attempts to browbeat and intimidate and make a person lose his job through "illegal means"?
2. Why don't you tell people that in this school where this girl studied the corridors are full of advertisements and posters from other churches asking students to go for Bible Studies and the like? Proselytisation in the school campus!!!
3. Why don't you tell them that the girl was not told about SF in the class room (a lie you have been propagating)but that she learnt about it in other ways?
The Fisherman: I guess I could "tell them..." but since I don't know/believe it happened that way, that would be a lie. And we both know that lying is wrong...
You seem to know all about the situation, blab away. We're listening.
"Elf has many [Smith's] friends"
8^)>
KEITH: So you don't know/believe. So you aren't lying. Was I lying? So you are not listening either. Yes, perhaps?
I do not belong to SF and I am a non-Christian. This "dog-fight" among "Christians" - don't you find it disgusting?
May the All-Merciful One grant you All-Peace.
The Fisherman:
1) I don't believe anything you've said (that was my point).
2) I wasn't lying.
3) I believe you are lying. (You ARE a friend of Elf's and that seems to be his pattern. I'm just assuming with you...
4) No. I'm not listening to anything you have to say. See numbers 1 and 3.
You stated: "I do not belong to SF and I am a non-Christian." Riiiiiggght. And there's really an Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy, too. Sorry to hear you're not a Christian.
If you are not a Christian, I can assure you that YOUR "All-Merciful One":
1) is quite different from the One I know
2) cannot give "peace that passes all understanding."
sometime ago harold wrote about the school system. Please refer to his post.
H is concerned about the alleged behavior of the leader in OK as a public school teacher. I am not familiar with the boundaries as set by the law in this matter, or the facts of the leader’s behavior. So I don’t provide answers but merely raise observations about H’s line of reasoning.
Of course, H cited US Supreme Court. H referred to NEA code of ethics. Also, H made his own statements. And I guess that H and Keith and all of us believe in religious freedom and being law-abiding citizens of our countries.
C1: “public schools are supposed to be theologically neutral”. “Theologically neutral” is a nice phrase. But who first used it? What does it mean? To me, it sounds either frighteningly clear (“no mention of God”) or surprisingly vague (define theology. Define God. Define neutral. Who monitors neutrality even if we agree on it?) to the point of ineffective. So, which is it?
C2: “use a public school classroom to introduce his religious beliefs” seems much clearer in comparison. But I still have issues with this. Can I introduce other religious beliefs, as far as the law is concerned? Can I, as a Christian, introduce Zorastrianism, but not Christianity? Is “introduce” equivalent to “mention”?
C3: “use a public school classroom to introduce his religious beliefs”: What if I don’t use a classroom? What if it is outside the classroom? What if it is the principal’s office (which is not a classroom)? What if it is outside the school property? Is it ok, H?
C4: What are the facts in this case? Did the leader use a classroom to introduce his beliefs?
It will be almost impossible to determine the facts here, as the only ones who can answer are probably the teacher and the girl, unless the leader was “dumb” enough to talk to her in a classroom about his religious beliefs in front of others (whose testimony can be trusted). Maybe he is dumb. Do you think so, H?
C5: I don’t understand what H meant when he said “Aside from that, I have no problem if you want to introduce Nietzche to students.” I thought H had an issue with teachers introducing Nietzche to students. Who is “you” in H’s sentence? Is it a “public school teacher in the US”, “any one else” or Nietzche himself?
“But if your name is Nietzche, and after graduating from your class a young female professes to become a Nietzchean and moves into your home when you know the parents disapprove, that crosses the line.”
C6: What crosses the line? A: your name is Y?; B: after graduating from your class?; C: a young person?; D: a female person?; E: become a Y-follower?; F: moves into your home?; G: the parents disapprove?; H: you know that the parents disapprove?; I: you are a public school teacher?; J: whether you introduced Y-ism in your class?; K: Does Y think that Y-ism is Christianity, one of the religions for which there is freedom in US?
There are eleven parameters here, each of which can be either a “yes/no” parameter. Do all of them have to be “yes” to cross the line? What if one is “no”? Will it still cross the line? If not, which ones need to be yes to cross the line?
C7: What is the line that we are debating about crossing? Is the line of “theologically neutral”? Or the line mentioned in C2 and C
3? Are they the same line? Or are we talking about an entirely different line?
"Any moral teacher in this country would honor the parent’s relationship with their child and I don’t care how old the girl is.
C8: Define “honor”. What did the leader do that did not honor the relationship? Can an opposition leader of Senate honor the President and still disagree? I think, he/she can.
C9: How can you not care how old the girl is? What if the incident happened 15 years after she graduated from the leader’s class?
C10: What is a “moral teacher”? Whose morals? What if every Joe in the street decides to go after teachers that don’t conform to his own morals? We will have chaos? If you say, “mainstream Christian morals”, then H is requiring (perhaps unwittingly) that every public school teacher should follow “main stream Christian morals” for teaching aspects? That doesn’t sound like freedom of religion to me.
"This girl may be of age but that does not diminish the responsibility of the teacher to uphold his moral integrity as an educator."
C11: I reiterate that whether the girl is or is not of age is of relevance. Not in determining whether it diminishes or doesn’t diminish the “responsibility of the teacher to uphold his moral integrity as an educator”. Because, I would think that the responsibility of a teacher, as made clear in the law, must be upheld no matter what the situation.
I am assuming here that H or anyone else does not place any more burdens on a teacher in the name of “moral integrity as an educator” than what the law itself places. But that is related to my questions and comments on C10.
"There are two areas in the NEA (National Education Association) code of ethics that are relevant (ref: http://www.nea.org/aboutnea/code.html; emphasis is mine)"
C12: What is the basis for NEA? I assume that some folks (not judges; but teachers, school administrators, others) try to clarify what the law says and puts together a code of ethics. Does it have any legal binding?
"The educator recognizes the magnitude of the responsibility inherent in the teaching process.
The desire for the respect and confidence of one's colleagues, of students, OF PARENTS, and of the members of the community provides the incentive to attain and maintain the highest possible degree of ethical conduct."
C13: It is easy for an educator to claim that he does “recognize the magnitude of the responsibility …”. But what if others dispute his claim? How can the others prove their counterclaim anyway?
C14: On the same lines, what if an educator “desires for the respect and confidence …” and the others don’t believe him? More clearly still, what if he desires it but does not get it? Or as more likely, what if he gets it from most of the folks, but not from all? Those who teach will generally understand that winning the confidence of the students is hard. Sometimes, some teachers win the confidence of the students, but lose that of the teachers.
C15: “attain and maintain the highest possible degree of ethical conduct”. No issues with that, except already mentioned in the earlier points. Don’t put a burden on “ethical conduct” that is of your personal choice.
"In fulfillment of the obligation to the student, the educator--Shall not use professional relationships with students for private advantage."
C16. I still think that the NEA is of effect only as long as the girl is a student. What if a teacher quits teaching and starts a business with his former student?
KEITH: The Elf is right about you. You're just an arrogant person and I am glad I am Hindu.
If you represent Christianity, I do not need your God nor do I need your so-called "peace that passes understanding".
Obviously, you lost that "peace" and your "understanding" and that is why you put up this blog in the first place. I pity you, arrogant man.
Even as Elf warned me, I should keep away from such blogs which has as its author an arrogant man who is a shame to his god.
I have known genuine Christians who do not respond as you do and that proves the kind of lowly background you come from as a so-called Christian.
Keep barking.
Goodbye.
Fisherman: The Elf is ALWAYS right...especially regarding situations or people he only knows via the internet (God bless, Al Gore).
Thanks for stomping, er uh, stopping by.
Fisherman: I re-read your comment --I have known genuine Christians who do not respond as you do and that proves the kind of lowly background you come from as a so-called Christian. Then you should have no problem in making the same assessment re: SF based on Elf's responses. It's a two-way street, my friend.
Elf began his conversation here as a liar. 'Nuff said.
Sri Keith:
Hari Om!
I am not interested in the tussle here or the groups you are attacking or defending or whether you think Elf is a liar or not. I do not mind you calling me a liar either.
But are you trying to insult Hinduism publicly by making those comments about the religion I belong to? Do you think that people who are not Christians are sub-human in some way to you, Sri Keith?
I am interested in your reply because now you have made it not a personal issue but a public issue of your animosity and condescension towards a major religion.
Fisherman: I will attempt to answer your rant(s). Your comments appear in bold.
I am not interested in the tussle here or the groups…
You obviously ARE interested to some extent since you took the time to “comment.”
But are you trying to insult Hinduism publicly…
Because I stated your “All-Merciful One” was different than mine? That’s an insult? If you really are Hindu, then we don’t worship the same God. Pretty simple.
Do you think that people who are not Christians are sub-human…
Not sure where you got that idea, but “No.”
… a public issue of your animosity and condescension towards a major religion. Hinduism? I don’t see how you got that. I implied that I didn’t believe in it…that’s animosity and condescension? If you would like to discuss the topic of condescension, let’s start with your initial comment on this thread. And frankly, what IF someone insulted another person’s religion? Is that cause for a “holy war?” I don’t believe the pope is any more closer to God than I am. I believe the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witnesses groups are cults. Lots of people agree with me; lots of people disagree with me. Don’t get your BVD’s in a knot about it. There are literally THOUSANDS of websites dedicated to the idea(s) that certain groups are or are not Christian, whether one is a cult or not, etc. I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over it.
I’ve said it before—people like you and Elf feel it is your right/duty to come to other people’s blogs and comment/condemn/rant/accuse, etc. Elf is the ONLY person I’ve ever purposely deleted their comments. I just got tired of his drivel. Everyone else, including you have been given free, open access to say whatever you please. You and Elf on the other hand have locked down your blogs preventing anyone here from viewing or commenting. How convenient.
Personally, I question whether all of the posts here labeled “Fisherman” are actually from the same person. I think it’s interesting that you think you know all about mine or anyone else’s involvement in this LOCAL issue…unless of course you are not who you say you are—which brings us back to the “lying” issue.
I’m not going to argue Hinduism vs Christianity. If you want to start a blog for that, more power to ya! My concern FROM THE START has been the devastation caused to a family that I PERSONALLY know and talk with on a regular basis. I have known the girl since she was in elementary school. My concern is HER and HER FAMILY. If that makes me arrogant, then so be it.
Fisherman: You said “And that is why such people faced a legal threat in return for your attempts to browbeat and intimidate and make a person lose his job through ‘illegal means’?”
What laws were broken?
You said “Why don't you tell them that the girl was not told about SF in the class room (a lie you have been propagating)but that she learnt about it in other ways?”
If the girl was not told about SF in the classroom, then tell me, where did she learn about SF?
Harold: The girl could have learned about the SF from conversations with the teacher outside the classroom. Is that possible?
Keith: You seem to admit that u have little/no experience of strong conflicts. I appreciate that honesty.
You are essentially saying that you, and quite likely, the girl's parents and the girl, would all have been in unchartered territory in such a situation.
Such journeys result in "mistakes" from both parties; we are now told that the parents and the girl are in communication anyway. So where is the issue? They seemed to have moved forward; the only fools seem to be us who are still discussing this. What sayest thou?
sorry..i meant to say..such journeys TYPICALLY result in mistakes from both parties. Meant it as a general observation/fact of life.
2b2bnot: I'm not sure what you mean about having experience with "strong conflicts." Have I personally had one of my children turned against me by someone I thought could be trusted? No.
The girl and her family are communicating, but from what I am hearing, it is not like it was before her indoctrination into SF.
I am a family friend, but my involvement in the situation (whatever level that may be) didn't occur until after the group had pretty much already "got her." I did contact the leader of the SF group and pleaded with him as a friend of the family and as a father--as I know he is--to please reconsider his involvement/influence over the girl. I was rebuffed with a threat of legal action. I guess it's a sin/against the law to "care."
"Moving forward." I'm not sure I'd categorize their situation that way, but then my definition would be different. If it were my child, I wouldn't be "satisfied" so to speak until my son (I only have boys) had disassociated himself with this group. But that's me. I am not speaking for the parents or anyone else here.
I'm not sure where you live, what your customs/beliefs are re: things of this nature, especially regarding children. For instance, my children are not allowed--even my 20-year-old, to watch certain TV programs in our home. We monitor the television, so we know what is on. It has always been that way. The “rule” is—as long as they live in my house, if I’m paying the insurance, providing food, shelter, cable TV, etc.—they are expected to honor my rules AND pitch in with maintaining the household. Anyone 18 or older is free to leave. My oldest chooses to stay while he is in school in order to save money. I’m OK with that. I like being able to be near him and hopefully continue to nurture and influence him.
My oldest son didn't start dating until he was out of high school and when he did, he asked the girls' father's permission before asking her. They are still dating, but they are going very slow; they don't go out every weekend, etc. They are both in school and focused on keeping their grades up and getting an education. They do attend our church together--she and her family are members of the same church we attend They don't spend time alone together where they might be tempted to do something they shouldn't.
Our family is very different from many of the families we know. We attend church Sunday mornings and evenings, as well as Wednesday evenings. We believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, all-sufficient Word of God. We believe Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. We believe there is only ONE God, the Creator. We believe the Holy Spirit comforts, encourages, and instructs us through His indwelling us. We believe Jesus will return to this earth one day to gather those who belong to Him. We believe we will be in Heaven with Christ for all of eternity…and we believe that ANYONE that embraces Jesus’ death on the cross as the only sacrifice for sin, places their faith in that sacrifice, believing that Christ rose victoriously on the “third day,” conquering sin and death—those people will inherit eternal life. That includes people from every tribe and nation, every walk of life. It even includes repentant murderers and child molesters. God’s grace crosses ALL lines and saves EVERYONE that will come to him. (I heard of one of the local SF members saying there wouldn’t/couldn’t be any “murderers” in “her heaven.” If that’s the case…I don’t want any part of her heaven. It’s not big enough and her god isn’t big enough.)
Some people that post here may not understand any of what I’ve said—especially if they do not live either in our area or have never been exposed to our kind of lifestyle. But that’s who we are; that’s who I am and that’s why I am so emphatic about what I believe about this particular situation with our friend’s daughter.
That’s my sermon for the night. Someone pass the plate, sing “Just As I Am” and we’ll go home.
Harold:
*You stated [April 28, 2008 5:49 AM] “My understanding is that the parents did not raise objection to her attending this church,it was when they moved her into their home behind the parents’ backs that they began to object.”
I am not sure if this piece of information was ever mentioned before. If this is indeed what happened in actuality, then it does add new perspective to the matter.
*You stated [April 28,2008 5:49 AM] “You assume that the parents are responsible for this estrangement and that this is just an innocent church trying to follow God.”
I wanted to clarify that I have not made this assumption. You can go back to the comment that I made [April 26, 2008 12:46 PM] to verify this. I think the child can also be responsible for a parent-child estrangement. So can other individuals (other adults who might be feeding wrong information to child and so forth). But when does the actions of a few individuals become a reflection of a church (‘SF’)as a whole?
Clearly, from the responses on this thread, it seems that members of a whole community (and not just the parents) have been hurt by the actions of ‘some’ within the aforementioned church. And I think the elders and members of SF-Oklahoma, at least the ones in the church that God has given the proper wisdom and understanding and compassion about this type of matter, should step up to the plate and address the hurt (if this has not been done so already). Has it? I think it’s been about 2 years since the original post. It does not have to be a debate or discussion between the different groups about who did what or who is right and who is wrong. It can just be a matter of gathering those involved/those who are concerned about the thought of having the same thing happening to their children and getting them under one roof (preferably not under the roof of a public school;-)and simply breaking bread together and having a time of fellowship and prayer [Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another – Colossians 3:13]. [Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called sons of God. – Matthew 5:9] Or maybe others in the community can take the first step and organize a small get-together? Or maybe I am being too idealistic here? This is a nice lead into one among several themes that have appeared on this thread that we can discuss without having to talk about the parties involved in this specific matter:
*You raised the question [April 28,2008 5:49 AM] “Have you ever considered that a legitimate church has a role to play in helping estranged families come together to honor God?” Yes I believe that a legitimate Christian church has a role to play in helping estranged families (and communities)come together. I am going to think more on this before forming any answers.
The Fisherman or the elf, are you two by any chance related to SF zealot John Oomen?
Your reasoning and blind activism for all things Smith's Friends leads me to believe so.
John Oomen is married to the sister of Zac Poonen. Zac Poonen received wisdom and left SF, yet John Oomen stayed and ever since he has been degrading Zac's name with silly personal attacks.
There is really a battle in India between the radical elements of SF and those who left. For this reason, SF leadership have been pouring in more money then usual into India (new conference centers etc). Hasn't helped much.
Zac Poonen is a great authority in Smith's Friends because he was with those at the top, like Bratlie. He understands their mentality and how dangerous it can be.
Sri Keith and others - Hari Om!
THE TRUTH: Who is John Oommen or Zac Poonen? I am not interested. But I can see that this blog is a site where Christian fanatics from one denomination are slugging it out with those from another denomination!!!
KEITH: Your very first post on your blog is an accusation/rant/ condemnation against a religious group based on a singular experience.
You said: "What IF someone insulted another person’s religion? Is that cause for a “holy war?" You may feel very free and comforted insulting the Pope, the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, the SF, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Kikes, Polacks, Niggers and whoever else you are biased against using your blog. But I hope you get punched in the face soon by someone of a different faith thanks to your insults or presumptions. Or perhaps you should be dragged into a court - a more civil way of dealing with such people who indulge in "hate speech" - a very American concept, no? But you are safe on your blog!
Your comments also make me believe that you are a "control" freak citing YOUR GOD concerning your children and in determining their lifestyle. So long as they "obey" you and remain under your and YOUR GOD'S "dominance/dominion", whether emotional or economic, you would be nice to them. But if they left your "control" system or that of the community of YOUR GOD, you would be "devastated" which is an euphemism for saying "Things did not work out the way I wanted them to go - my way!!" The girl has forsaken her "control" system and that seems to be taboo in your community, I suppose!! Much like some villages or caste communities in India. In that sense, I pity you and sympathise with those who are "devastated". However, more power to those who challenge and opt out of "control" systems!!!
Finally, you remind me of a parrot with your statement of belief which I have heard from many other white American "missionaries" who come to our country to deride Indian belief systems and culture. Swami Vivekananda once mentioned that "Christianity pretends to tolerate other human beings but actually condemns and excludes them". He said "acceptance is superior to tolerance".
I once was at a beautiful Christian meeting thanks to Elf who took me to it where they sang the song you mentioned "Just as I am" (but didn't ask for money). I felt I had then touched for a moment a Christ who accepts human beings as they are. But, by and large, I have discovered Christians to be intolerant and not accepting of others "just as they are". I guess Dr Sarvepalli Radhakrishna, former President of India and a great spiritual scholar, said the truth when he said: Christians are ordinary people who make extraordinary claims that they cannot live upto in life but excuse themselves by using a phrase called "grace'.
Sri Keith and others HARI OM!
Looks like Keith has a particular hatred towards Elf and makes peculiar demands only on him.
I saw that his complaint is that Elf has not opened his blog.
So I did this analysis to show Keith his blind spots:
owasso bob - no access to blog
cheatwoods - (1) With Love the Cheatwoods - This blog is open to invited readers only (2)http://daddymommyandbaby.blogspot.com - (open to all)
(3) http://money4newbuilding.blogspot.com - open to all)
(4) http://phatsophotos.blogspot.com (open to all - some nice/ugly pics of tummies - :-)
http://wichfabricdoyouwant.blogspot.com (open to all)
teetown - no access to blog
daniel strubhar - no access to blog
crystal - no access to blog
harold - no access to blog
elf_asura - no access to blog
mali - no access to blog
scott - no access to blog
2b2bnot - no access to blog
p.s - no access to blog
thetruth - no access to blog
yukonbound2 aka p. - nothing on the blog though there is access.
silvan halo - no access to blog
hdreger or heather - blog accessible at http://hgdreger.blogspot.com
sophie - no access to blog
penguin41 - no access to blog
rhea - http://atanomellon.blogspot.com
thefisherman - no access to blog
Sri Keith - May I, a heathen pagan Hindu who will fry in hell, beg you to learn to be objective and play fair? Your sycophants do not have open blogs, Sri Keith. Looks like you are orchestrating a campaign of hatred on this blog, towards an individual and a religious group - Sri Keith.
HARI OM!!
SHANTIH! SHANTIH! SHANTIH!
Keith:
I am saddened by the manner in which some have conducted and are conducting themselves on this thread. It really shows a lack of maturity. This comment by The Fisherman addressed to Keith [on April 29, 2008 11:37 PM] is the last straw for me:
“But I hope you get punched in the face soon by someone of a different faith thanks to your insults or presumptions.”
I hope that others also see the gravity of such a remark. Keith, you have been really patient with addressing all of the comments on here – much more patient than I could ever have been. And you left the post open for comments though you had options of turning on comment moderation/ or closing off comments right from the beginning. Once again, I appreciate your forthrightness. I have learned a lot through these discussions. I do hope that you will keep this post and the discussion that followed on this site as a means of future reference for others who come through this way. I especially want to thank Yukon Bound, Heather, and Harold for their contributions as well. May God help us all.
Fisherman: Let's see..."punched in the face" doesn't equal "hate speech?" You're cracking me up. Did you have something to say OF VALUE?
Where in the WORLD did you come up with that list, i.e. "...Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Kikes, Polacks, Ni**ers and whoever else..." There is not ONE post on this blog condemning those groups (I don't konw what a "kike" is, and I don't use the word "ni**er"---EVER.)
Hey Einstein, the reason many of the blogs you cited don't have access is that they DON'T EXIST anymore. You and your precious elf don't fall into that category. The other reason, they got tired of nutjobs driving by an posting all kinds of nonsense (imagine that). And if you'd taken the time, you'd find that several of those blogs have simply moved to different servers. I found Daniel Strubhar's blog with no problem. The Cheatwoods blog is open to all. Just came from there. If you had actually read this post/thread you would have seen that Crystal posted here blog address later in the thread. I gotta ask: Is this your first time on the internet? You seem to have a bit of trouble understanding how it works.
"...someone of a different faith thanks to your insults or presumptions." You WAY over estimate the influence of this blog.
"HARI OM!! SHANTIH! SHANTIH! SHANTIH!" I don't understand any of that. You need to speak/write in English if you want us to understand what you're saying...but then again...
I trully am sorry that you have such a hatred for Americans/Christians. If this blog bothers you that much, maybe you should avoid it. You aren't making any headway here--no one is taking you serious. You're really an angry, angry man. That's too bad.
Penguin: I too am saddened by the anger and the turn some of the commentors have taken. No where near the original content or tone of this post.
I appreciate your civil participation. I have no intention of closing down this post or removing it. There are some very good and very bad examples of what is wrong and what is right with some religions/faiths.
Fisherman: Join the ranks of the Elf. You obviously lack the intelligence to engage in civil conversation. See ya-- we don't need your help here.
Harold: My implication is not as you suggest. It is simply that you cannot prescribe anyone's spiritual journey anymore than I can. "Real churches don't destroy families". How do you reconcile this philosophy of yours with Jesus's words in Matthew 10:35-37 or 8:21. Had he followed Jesus, I am not sure if that the young man who wanted to bury his father would have been viewed favorably by his family.
I did not have to move out of my parent's house because my parents had the wisdom to understand that I was following God's call for my life. Granted that it caused them a lot of grief. But there was no other alternative. What makes you think that 'children' who make such a tough decision don't spend time with the parents? Do you think such people 'shun' their parents? Why make that mental association at all?
Also, it is interesting that the various suggestions you made didn't involve actually following the conviction I was talking about. My question to you, Harold, is still open. Have YOU ever experienced such a situation where you have had to make a tough choice involving what you consider God's will for your life and the will of our parents? Do you think that a lot of 'praying' would have convinced me otherwise?
I don't think that 'children' who follow convictions are trying to estrange themselves from parents. All I am saying is that following ones convictions (it could be a social or religious cause or whatever it is that you hold as true) sometimes causes estrangement and not because the parties want it to be so.
Just stepping in for a moment to briefly comment:
1. Elf_Asura and TheFisherman are almost certainly the same person, or else Elf is feeding fisherman certain lines to post here. Sheesh.
2. Response to what thetruth wrote:
"John Oomen is married to the sister of Zac Poonen. Zac Poonen received wisdom and left SF, yet John Oomen stayed and ever since he has been degrading Zac's name with silly personal attacks."
ACTUALLY, JOHN OOMMEN'S OLDER SISTER is the wife of Zac Poonen. Interesting sidenote: the current leader of the SF-Oklahoma spent many years (pre-Oklahoma) in the SF-Ottawa-Canada group - where John Oommen has been active for many years.
"There is really a battle in India between the radical elements of SF and those who left. For this reason, SF leadership have been pouring in more money then usual into India (new conference centers etc). Hasn't helped much."
VERY TRUE. THE SFs have taken great anger and revenge toward Zac Poonen, because he has emerged as the most forceful and effective critic of the SFs, worldwide.
"Zac Poonen is a great authority in Smith's Friends because he was with those at the top, like Bratlie. He understands their mentality and how dangerous it can be."
VERY TRUE. When a former leader of the SFs, Elias Aslaksen, passed away many years ago, Zac Poonen was just a handful of people who were asked to contribute a written tribute to Elias Aslaksen for a memorial newsletter that was spread through out the world. Zac Poonen was very connected with Aslaksen, Bratlie, and several other leaders.
*** NOTICE ***
I hate to do this, but I have a situation that requires me to be away for several days. I will be unable to "monitor" comments during this time--keeping the idiotic rants deleted--so effective immediately, comments will be closed. Comments will be re-opened May 7.
Thank you for your patience. Every should take this time to cool off a bit. Looking forward to your comments next week.
Rhea: It is very typical that you referenced Mat 10:35-37 and 8:21. These are very common “proof texts” by groups that ignore the whole of scripture and take things out of context to serve their purpose. You have to examine the whole of scripture in the context in which it was written.
First of all, in Mat 10:35-37, who was Jesus talking to? - His disciples. He was preparing to send them out on their own to spread His message. And to whom were they to take His message? – First to the Jews. And what was their message? – “The kingdom of God is near” brought about through Jesus Christ; the Messiah. The idea that Jesus was the Messiah was blaspheme to the Jews. Some would believe and some would not. This would indeed bring conflict, even between family members. But it is those who did not believe who would do the persecuting (see v23). Jesus’ command to “love one another” still applies (Jn 15:17). And what is the sword that Jesus brought? – The Word of God (Eph 6:17).
So in summary, the message of Jesus Christ, the Word of God, would bring conflict between believers and unbelievers. But the idea that Jesus would bring conflict and separation between families of believers is simply not supported by the whole of scripture.
Referring to v8:21, since the Jews placed great importance on the duty of children to bury their parents, this again illustrates a conflict between believers and unbelievers.
So I have to ask the question, are your parents believers in Jesus Christ?
You said: “…there was no other alternative”. I doubt that. There are always alternatives.
You said: “What makes you think that 'children' who make such a tough decision don't spend time with the parents? Do you think such people 'shun' their parents? Why make that mental association at all?”
I don’t believe that in general but I make that association about SF in this situation because that is the behavior observed by this group here in this place. The words of Elf and others have confirmed that this behavior is a direct result of the teaching from SF.
Did I ever experience such a situation where I had to make a tough choice related to God’s will for my life? I wasn’t raised in a Christian home but I did make several decisions that did not please my parents. Becoming a believer was NOT one of them. And none of these decisions caused either of us to shun the other. I have always maintained close contact with my parents, even if I didn’t like the things they did and vice versa. I would like to add that becoming a believer and studying God’s word actually caused me to appreciate and respect my parents more, and I realize the importance of trying to being an example of Christ’s love that may help them to see the truth in Jesus Christ as well. Turning my back on them isn’t going to save them.
You said: “Do you think that a lot of ‘praying’ would have convinced me otherwise?”
I, in no way, suggested that you should do “otherwise”. My point was that you should make sure that you are doing what YOU want to do, without undue influence from others. Sometimes in order to make important life choices we need to consider all available information, both negative and positive, before we commit ourselves. And take the time to reflect on all the information by ourselves. Not everything that seems good to us comes from God. Read Chapter 3 of Genesis.
Keith: I’ve been reading your blog for some time now. I have never written in a blog. But I wanted to share a personal observation. Let’s lay aside the theoretical differences, and forget for a moment the original question, “Is this a cult?” but lets take into considerations the lady, or “girl who is of age” who is in the middle of this whole debate.
You see, I know this girl, and have personally watched as this “transformation” has taken place. I watched as she was a vibrant young girl, with her whole life ahead of her. She had dreams and ambitions. She, as a teen, lived a very true Christ like life, an example to others. She truly loved the Lord with all her heart, and she loved her family, mom, dad, and siblings.
She was actually very close to her family. She also loved people. She had a real compassion for people of all ages. She was an outstanding example for those younger that her.
Their family is a unique family. A family that loves each other, cares for each other, works together, goes to church together, and prays together. She used to spend a lot of time with her mom, doing whatever. They all have very high morals.
I remember when she began going to these “meetings” with her school teacher. He was very kind to her, and gave her a lot of extra attention. Not that she needed it, again she had a very supportive family, and she is very intelligent.
As she began going to the “meetings”, more and more, the parents, who were involved from the beginning, as any parent would be, continued asking questions. She began getting very defensive of the group, and the “meetings”. Keep in mind, these are her parents, the ones who have been with her since birth, correction, before birth. The ones God choose especially for her, they have been with her every day of her life. Every breath. Through private lessons, through skinned knees, through it all. The same parents who still want nothing but the best for their little girl, or “girl of age”.
As they asked basic “good parent” questions: So, what are you learning? What do they believe? Who is there? Are you making new friends?...She got more defensive, and began being more “sneaky” with her new found “friends”.
I have watched her go from a very loving, kind, caring, considerate, compassionate, HAPPY young lady to a very scared, closed, isolated, seemingly UNHAPPY “girl of age”. She used to greet my kids and me with open arms, a true concern for our well being, wanting to know how, where, and what’s going on in our lives. We always had conversations, back and forth. Now, it’s hard for her to look us in the eye, she looks scared like someone’s watching her. She very seldom hugs us anymore. She’s no longer the same person. They have not made her “better”.
I have been were this young lady now is...Wanna know what it's like? You've got an abusive narcissist right here on this blog. He/she is the one that's name calling, hostile, overly critical and insecure. Imagine living with or near this? How long would you last? Years of cult and sbuse work has taught me one thing about these people, lend then no energy ever. They cease to exist without it. Show this young girl your support by sticking to facts and eliminating one abuser.
As a former sv, I would like to leave a thought. First, I dont be-lieve they are a cult because, they
do believe That Jesus is the only
way. They would refer to that as
the forgiveness of sins. They do believe in holiness and sanctification. Good things to really consider in a generation of
christians who tend to be into greasy grace. Truly, I do understand all the concerns voiced
here, and I understand what the young girls parents must be going
through. To them, I would like to say keep praying and perserving with the relationship, dont contend
theologically, that will drive her
all the more away. Love her and support her where you can.
I didnt leave so much because of thier theology , I left because of
the way they live. Eg I liked to
ski, but it is a little hard to ski
in a skirt, that kind of stuff. I didnot agree with all the teachings. I did learn some valuable things from them. I did
leave and am reintrigrated into
the church. If there was hope for
me threr is hope for this girl
Kieth, thank you for bearing with
us
heart2heart: I have also seen some of the same "changes" you mentioned. Thanks for sharing.
Harold: Very well thought out post.
Ecit: You stated: You've got an abusive narcissist right here on this blog. I'm not sure who you are referring to. Care to be more specific?
Jarsmom: There are points of SF theology that sound like mainstream Christianity, but my opinion of SF (at least the local group) is based on the "cult-like" actions (seclusion, secrecy, deception, etc) I've seen and heard of.
I do take exception to the teaching that we can "overcome conscious sin" based on the Apostle John's teaching in his epistles, as well as the words of the Apostle Paul who emphatically stated he had not (in 30+ years) attained that goal.
I do appreciate your kind spirit and willingness to dialog here on a civil level.
Keith,
You may well be correct about the
local group, I do remember that the
thinking of the leading brothers varied from group to group and from
what I am hearing, it sounds like
some of the thinking from Norway is
quite different as well and has changed quite a bit, I left over 10
years ago. I never went along with
the notion Jesus wasnt God when he
was here on earth, I think it is
very clear he believed he was.
I will keep this young lady in my
prayers as well as her parents. I know how crazy worried they must
be about now. I think it is important to realize sv can be very appealing to young intergetric people who are bright and may ,without realizing it ,
dissillusioned with the church.
But they do suffer the same frailties as any other group, although they would staunchly disagree. It is possible she will
become disillusioned and leave sv.
please encourage your friends to
maintain relationship with their
daughter as much as possible.
ecit: You said that you have been where this girl is. Are you a former SF too?
Jarsmom: You stated that you never went along with the notion that Jesus wasn’t God when He was here on earth. I don’t think that subject was brought out by any other SF comments. How do they justify that belief? Do they have a different Bible?
2b2bnot: You said “The girl could have learned about the SF from conversations with the teacher outside the classroom. Is that possible?”
It’s possible, but that’s not the case here. And really doesn’t matter if it was inside or outside the classroom. When a male teacher moves a young female high school student into his home soon after graduation, and causes her to shun her family, and all of her good friends, that should raise all kinds of questions about this teacher. We expect our teachers to uphold the highest ethical behavior because we trust them with our children. It is simply wicked for a male educator or church leader to actively encourage any female student to abandon her own family and move in with him.
Heart2Heart: 2b2bnot stated that “we are now told that the parents and the girl are in communication anyway. So where is the issue?” Since you seem to know this family, is this true? Are we discussing something that has already been resolved?
the comments are more then I could read here....I don't know if I'm a smith's friend or not......can't make up my mind???? But uh, lot of the time when I do try to e-mail smith's friends they don't e-mail me back.....I think I have been black listed.....they don't appear to like me much. I used to be mad at them a lot...now I'm just confused if they aren't the body of christ how is christianity the body of christ when there's no zeal no fire that I see out there....not much talk about denying oneself and taking up ones cross and following jesus that I see much out there how how is mainstream christianity the body of christ??????? But I mean smith's friends mostly hate me to so : ) hahahahahahah I have 0 friends post leaving or ya guess leaving the smith's friends.....zeal fire for god's word to be stoked up by other christians doesn't much happen outside the smith's friends.....christians outside the smith's friend hit me as being aimless no direction don't see that clear deny yourself take up your cross and follow jesus sort of mindset to follow jesus who paved the way through the veil that is the flesh...through that! Crucifying my flesh to it's lusts and desires...through that veil. It's a way jesus consecrated a real way, I don't see mainstream christians acknowledging this way jesus consecrated....talking about it....thinking about it.....acknowledging it's existence. But the smith's friends don't like me so I ain't never going to be a smith friend don't think. Well I do have some dragon boating friends : )
christian Blog
I felt the same way when I left. blackballed etc, they called it
faithfulness. If you look you will
be able to zeal for God, It just
wont look like it did in sv. The
vanacular will be completely different as well. If you were raised in sf it will be hard to
integrate your self into the body.
it was hard for me, I was only out
a few years. I will be praying for
you
2b2bnot: On April 29, you wrote:
C13: It is easy for an educator to claim that he does “recognize the magnitude of the responsibility …”. But what if others dispute his claim? How can the others prove their counterclaim anyway?
Anyone can “claim” anything they want. But actions speak louder than words. If I am overweight, I can go around town “telling” everyone that I’ve lost 70 pounds. Or, I can “actually lose” 70 pounds. But, if I still look overweight to everyone and the scales still weigh the same as before, I can either face reality or I can go around “claiming” and trying to convince people that I’ve lost weight when it isn’t really the truth at all. Teachers can “say” anything they want, but all will know the truth by observing their actions.
C14: On the same lines, what if an educator “desires for the respect and confidence …” and the others don’t believe him? More clearly still, what if he desires it but does not get it? Or as more likely, what if he gets it from most of the folks, but not from all? Those who teach will generally understand that winning the confidence of the students is hard. Sometimes, some teachers win the confidence of the students, but lose that of the teachers.
Maybe in this case, it is because students are young, naïve, impressionable, trusting and wanting to believe the best about people. As we mature and go through life, we learn from our experiences. Most high school students haven’t had the life experiences to recognize when they are being manipulated, deceived, used, conned, lied to, you name it. Maybe mature adults can better recognize manipulation when they see it so it diminishes any confidence one may have had in a peer worker.
C16. I still think that the NEA is of effect only as long as the girl is a student. What if a teacher quits teaching and starts a business with his former student?
It really doesn’t matter what you “think”. What does matter is the fact that a teacher has “moral obligations” and is paid by the taxpayers (many of which are parents) to teach the subject matter for which he/she was hired, not turn students against the people who love them the very most. So “what if a teacher quits teaching and starts a business with his former student”?
It depends. Is this teacher also going use this “business” as an excuse to move the student into his home and encourage him/her to sever all former relationships with family and friends? If so, then it is wrong. I have yet to meet anyone who wants to raise a child for 18 years only to have their relationship destroyed. And, it is not because they want to “control” their child (as has been implied by Elf or the fisherman).
Teachers should encourage familial relationships. Bible-believing Christians should encourage familial relationships. Remember, actions speak louder than words. Proverbs 20:11 “Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.”
Things have been kinda quiet around here--in some respects, that's been nice. I spent some time the other day looking through some of the SF websites (the ones that were in English since my Norwegian is a little rusty) and noticed this statement on a page dedicated to SF in our area: "We see that it is important to not only preach, but more importantly live a life of victory over sin so that we can be a light to those whom God has called to be disciples of Jesus Christ..."
This group claims they desire to impact the world for Christ, yet, had they not involved themselves in the life of our friend's daughter, I would never have heard of this group. They do not publicize their meetings in the local papers. I don't ever recall seeing any kind of "flyer" advertising their meeting times and I've never had one of them knock on my door and invite me to a service--maybe they figure the JW's already got to me. I've spoken to quite a few people in re: to SF and the initial response is "I've never heard of such a group." So much for being salt/light or impacting your community.
christian blog said
“christians outside the smith's friend hit me as being aimless no direction don't see that clear deny yourself take up your cross and follow jesus sort of mindset to follow jesus who paved the way through the veil that is the flesh...through that!”
I would encourage you to take a look at several people who have “taken up their cross” to follow Jesus, some quite literally. You can visit Keith Wheeler’s web site at www.kw.org. Or you can read Peace Child by Don Richardson. And what about Mother Theresa? Can you honestly say that these people are “aimless”, have “no direction”, don’t have that “clear, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus sort of mindset”? None of these is a part of SF.
Keith: You and I started this conversation several months ago and it has been very interesting to me and I have a couple of observations I would like to share. It is easy to get into theological debates between different denominations. That is why there are different denominations, there are many different people, and in this country they are free to congregate and speak their ideas without fear of persecution. This freedom is a good thing. It is what made this country great.
However coercive groups take away these individual freedoms. By instilling fear and guilt into their members, they seek to manipulate and control them for their own purposes. This idea that a particular group has the only truth and they are the only ones going to heaven is nothing new. The New Testament refers to Gnosticism and one of the tenants of that philosophy is a “special knowledge”. So as the saying goes…there is nothing new under the sun.
These members can say that they are free, but are they really? What happens when they try to leave? According to statements made by ex-members here, they are subject to ridicule and harassment. They were led to believe that their salvation was dependant on this group and this group alone. That is contrary to scripture, and pure manipulation; demanding and controlling. My personal belief in Jesus Christ is what saves me. When the time comes and I have to face my judgment, God won’t ask me what church I went to or how many meetings I missed.
We have also found that another hidden teaching is the belief that Jesus was not God when He was here on earth. I bet you won’t find that on their web site. You don’t have to read very far in the New Testament scriptures to find the virgin birth and the fact that the very crime for which He was crucified was that He claimed to be God. To make the claim that Jesus Christ was not God in the flesh here in earth is to make Him out as a liar and makes a mockery of the Bible. As C.S. Lewis stated, there are only 3 possibilities when it comes to Jesus Christ. He was either a liar, a lunatic, or He was who He said He was… the Lord. And He didn’t say He was becoming God, or had been God or anything else. He simply said “I am”.
I also found the same web site you referred to Keith in your last posting. It says this:
“In spite of all this religious activity (here in Oklahoma), the teaching of victory over all manifest and conscious sin is virtually unheard of”
First of all this sounds like is a very judgmental statement. The SF crowd here stated that they don’t preach that they are the ONLY Christians yet this statement implies that all of these Bible Belt Christians are Christians in name only and that the Word is not lived out in the Christian community here. So this statement separates them from all other Christians and they have therefore judged everyone outside of their group.
Let’s also take a look at the term “victory over all manifest and conscious sin”. In Sigurd Bratlie’s booklet called “The Grace that is in Christ Jesus” he says this: “Now I can become perfect according to my conscience. My conscience is my understanding of good and evil. To be perfect is to put everything in my life in order according to the understanding I have. Then I no longer have these continual reminders of sins.”
So according to their teaching I can become perfect according to MY conscience. Yes, that is true. If I get to define what is right and wrong then I can be perfect in my own mind. But this totally ignores God. He is the one that defines what is good and evil, not me. If I think I deserve my neighbors new car and I so I take it, it seems right in my mind so I have not sinned. That seems to be the teaching here. This explains their behavior with regards to the girl in question and her family. They have caused damage to another family but their conscience is clear so according to their theology they have not sinned. They can still claim “victory over sin”.
Sigurd goes on to say: “When we speak about being perfect, we mean perfect according to our conscience as disciples – and this is possible.”
Remember Bratlie said “My conscience is MY understanding of good and evil”. This just reinforces the idea that they can totally ignore God’s commandments and still be perfect in their own minds.
Once I asked my mom so when does mainstream christianity preach "christ crucified" you know the sad reply she told me.....easter! EASTER! 1 Corinthians 1:23 "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" Not so much preached in mainstream christianity about jesus being perfected in the things he suffered Hebrews 2:10
"For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." aka "christ crucified" sort of stuffs that I can see at all at all - my mom has it right "christ crucified" is just preached at easter in mainstream christianity. The big thing smith's friends have going for them reason I am getting sattelight feeds of some their services soon, is cause at least at their church --- "christ crucified" is fully preached, I can go to their church or hear a mp3 of one their services and I know ok this is the way jesus paved, not just some mumbo jumbo "strange doctrines" as I find almost every where else (Hebrews 13:9) Jesus said, deny yourself and take up your cross and follow him daily cause he also had a cross up every day, a thourough death jesus died I believe to his self life Philippians 3:10 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" He that loveth his life shall lose it....John 12:25 "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." It's a way to go spoken crisp and clear at the smith's friends churches they could very very very very very well be THE body of christ on the earth just like they say they are. Like paul I want to hear preached 1 Corinthians 2:2 "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." Stuff that is going to point me in the right way to get life in christ ---- to lose my life! To be made conformable unto jesus's death, fellowship in his sufferings! I do not believe the smith's friends have judged the rest of christianity, they are careful who they give the word of god to they believe that a person is better off not hearing the entire gospel then to hear it and not heed it (bible verse somewhere talking about hell being even hotter and worse for people who have heard the full gospel and did not heed it) I though am more of the save as many souls as I possibly can mindset myself : ) says in the bible that people who bring many people to righteousness will shine like the fermament....I'll look so much better then have few wrinkles on my neck that shining like the fermament will hide and a wrinkle on my forehead : ) who knows if there'll be makeup in heaven something to think about! I'll look great shiny : )
I can tell you all why smith's friends don't reach out to many christians of many churches pretty fully.........mainstream christianities idea of "washed by the blood of the lamb" is ---- least fully in the foursquare church but think most mainstream christianity all it pretty much is that jesus was the sacrifice for your sins - presto you get baptised you are saved, you are "washed in the blood of the lamb" --- without any take up your cross and follow jesus.......cause if all of mainstream christianity really believed they need to be buried w/christ, and deny themselves and take up their cross and crucify their fleshes to their lusts and desires.....if they really believed that......wouldn't that be preached????????? ----- at foursquare church I went to for 2+ years pastor clean compared jesus to a carcas we wear after it's been offered at the altar of god and that covers our sins. But jesus wasn't like a jewish offering at a altar in the way that the offering is there and it dies and that's that and walla presto get baptised and your "covered in the blood of jesus" there is a covering in the blood of jesus but there is also a way jesus consecrated.....Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" We supposed to be made conformable unto his death - be clean buried w/christ! I'm am to be a living sacrifice my prayers are supposed to go up to god as a pleasant aroma from all this laying down my life buisiness. I think mainstream christians also don't preach the word of god the full gospel on purpose at "rolling hills baptist church" I talked w/the pastor there extensively and he told me though he fully believed everything I was telling him that he was never going to preach the full gospel cause he was "trying to reach the lost". Ain't going to reach the lost til you tell them how they can find life in jesus!
There pry are many other mainstream christians out there I imagine who also know the full gospel who also aren't preaching all of it, and telling themselves they are doing a great thing, cause they are "reaching the lost"
Til I hear it preached, super super super preached, I'm with the smith's friends. What am I to do, just sit out there and hear "strange doctrine's"?
My family is mainstream christians - my dad he told me and my brother and sister when we got baptised that that was it we were saved ------ even then that idea of instantly saved just cause I accepted jesus as my personal savior seemed way way far fetched, just seemed to easy - if I go in the water the same person and leave the water the same person.......if I leave the water and walk a whole new and living way the jesus consecrated in his flesh that makes sense to me! ----- my parents are shunning me right now ----- the smith's friends many them are shunning me to still ----- I'm a solo gig --- don't want to be but what can I do I can't force the smith's friends to like me.......I'm giving away all their "treasure" everywhere rather happily : ) jesus said, "freely ye have received, freely give" they can't like that much. I don't have nothing to gain by hiding my treasure buring it in the ground.....god gave me what he gave me to share, these "talents" god gave me are meant to be shared and used, not buried in the ground cause I know god is what bible say something like "peculiar" reaping where He did not sew. Naw, share what you have give freely, use whatever talents god has given you to the max. Though there is a hiding of treasure new christians do til they have sold all they had to buy the treasure that is jesus ----- guess the smith's friends most rest of them just still selling all they have to buy it : ) I'm a step ahead maybe : ) or they just don't like me giving out masses of all their treasure to the entire earth. I like to think the smith's friends secretely love their pirate : )
Christian Blog: In your post on May 28, you stated “to lose my life!” I’m just curious, what is it you do to “lose your life”? What is it you’re doing to “suffer for Christ”? And, how are you “laying down your life”? What are you “denying yourself” in order “to take up the cross of Jesus”?
You also stated, “I do not believe Smith’s Friends have judged the rest of Christianity; they are careful who they give the word of God to; they believe that a person is better off not hearing the entire gospel than to hear it and not heed it.” You mentioned some scripture about it is better for a person to not hear the message of God than to hear it and deny it? God gives us a free will; we are not His puppets on a string. So what about some of these scriptures? Matthew 28:19 says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” Our job is to spread God’s Word. It is then left up to the individual to “choose” to worship God or “choose” not to. Our job is to spread the gospel, to share (there are many methods of doing this) the Good News. It is God’s job to work on the hearts of men. So we shouldn’t be picking and choosing who we present the gospel to. If we really read the whole Bible, we see over and over that all of God’s followers are sinners. They are not perfect; we live in a fallen world. But, God used them in mighty ways. He brought them to repentance and used their sins to teach us even still today. But, none were perfect.1 John 1:8-10 says, “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us”. So, really we are all sinners and no one will have “victory over sin” until we are in heaven with God. Even David, ‘a man after God’s own heart,’ was a sinner. But, he repented and grew in his love and devotion to God. And, then there’s Jonah. He sinned by disobeying God, but then he repented and obeyed. We can not work hard and long enough to get to heaven on our own. But we can repent and grow in Christ. Everyone sins because we’re human. But, when we do sin, His grace does cover us. God gave that to us, because He loves us and knows we’re going to fail from time to time. That’s different than habitual sinning. God loves us! Grace is a gift.
You also stated that the Smith’s Friends are shunning you? How are they shunning you?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, anyone can say anything that they want. SF groups may preach “laying down their life”, “victory over sin,” etc. But are they modeling that? The behaviors being displayed by this group aren’t lining up with what they preach???? One difference between this group and other Christians is that we know we’re sinners in need of a Holy and Perfect Savior while they claim “victory over sin”, yet continue sinning. How is that victory?
Victory over sin is possible while we are on this earth.....Revelation 2:17 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"
1 John 1:7-8 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." I take verse 8 where it says "if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" to mean sin in my flesh. Also smith's friends talk about "unconscious" sins that also happen - due to sin dwelling in the flesh. BUT Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" we aren't to go on on purpose sinnning anymore!
What I do to deny myself and take up my cross and follow jesus in the day ----- I spend time playing w/my youngest child, and cleaning the house....I really do deny myself and make a effort every single day to take up my cross and follow jesus. The good acceptable and perfect will of god is that we'd be living less for ourselves and think about each other more I believe.
The smith's friends every time I try to e-mail any of them they don't reply to my e-mails w/the exception of daniel struhbar he has e-mailed me before. I recently e-mailed like 20 smith's friends none them replied, also recently e-mailed the contact person in seattle and he didn't reply, also recently called salem fellowship asking for info on how to get the sattelight set up, and my husband gave them his work phone number and the girl that was the churches secretary that day said that she'd have a brother call my husband that has the info ---- no call. But we going to call them again, cause I need a special card from them to be able to get the sattelight feeds (a descrambler card, all their feeds my husband says are "encoded" so only smith's friends w/the descrambler cards can view them)
Victory over sin is possible! 1 Peter 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" He who has "suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin" but when bible says "he who overcometh" that's way more then just victory over sin, that's overcoming this entire earth! Not being even like tempted to none the lusts of the flesh no more, entire overcoming the entire earth I thouroughly believe and believe it's way way way possible. Jesus is our forerunner he was victorious over the flesh! Hebrews 2:10 "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." Jesus had a flesh, he was tempted in all points yet without sin ------ YET WITHOUT SIN!!!!!!!!
Romans 8:3-4 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Sin in the flesh has been "condemned" don't walk after the flesh!
As far as jesus being god in the flesh my thoughts on that, might as well give a thourough reply I recogn : ) Philippians 2:6-7 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" So bible says jesus was "in the form of god" I believe that I have no qualms w/that.....I also believe, he humbled himself and "make himself of no reputation" took on the form of a servant and "was made in the likeness of men" Bible says you know if a person is "of god" if they say jesus came in the flesh....1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" It's a good thing to say jesus came in the flesh and believe that, he had a flesh, in all points tempted like us just like us ---- wasn't nothing make believe about that, jesus wasn't god pretending to be tempted in all points yet without sin he really seriously was tempted in all points yet without sin cause he had a flesh just like us!!!!
Jesus had to have a flesh just like us, to be able to consecrate the new and living way....Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" If jesus didn't have a real flesh just like us fully tempted in all points yet without sin ---- a real real real flesh, he wouldn't of been able to open up this "new and living way" "through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" he needed a flesh a real human flesh to uhhhh crucify to it's his lusts and desires ---- go through right -- to open up this new and living way through the veil that is to say "his flesh" his real real real real actual real just like us tempted in all points yet without sin flesh.
The elders of the smith's friends at salem fellowship are to this day very very nice to me, some them are, pastor's daughters have always been nice to me, the young kids really like me....I always feel welcome at youth meetings. They should all like me : ) I believe everything they believe rather fervently : ) There is victory to be had over sin.....he who "overcometh" overcometh's while on this earth, jesus had victory, jesus was much a overcomer, and he much much much much had a real real real flesh just like ours. (though technically he was in "form of God" but he fully made himself as a man, he seriously was tempted in all points yet without sin ----- jesus ain't someone who kept his "god" flesh, he humbled himself and became one of us! He had to to consecrate this new and living way "through the veil that is his flesh"
I don't like everything the smith's friends do, but I like what they believe, what they believe is extremely useful for me to know the way to go to follow jesus. Not everyone on this earth is called, or meant to live for jesus like this, some people are this earth are just made for common purposes...Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" God has power, "power over the clay" to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour - I believe there's limits to the "freewill" a person has, god has the power to make one to honour and another to dishonour ---- as in He does, He makes some lumps of clay for common purposes. Yes they all should be able to hear the word of god I much agree with you there, the full gospel they all should hear the full gospel ---- though some them god's made to be "vessels unto dishonour" and hearing the full gospel is going to do most people 0 good.....only few are chosen. I can't force the smith's friends to evangelize more, I try as you can see I not holding back nothing at all...I have a blog, anyone can read it.
I believe all the elect of god all all all the elect of god is "scarcely saved" 1 Peter 4:18
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" I'm going to be extra honest to you, most days I don't deny myself and take up my cross as well as I could I'm repentful of that and going to work to do better --- I should be like john the baptist out there eating locust's "subsisting off whatever" preaching preaching all day long --- I should be! That's giving my all pry. That's going full blast on the narrow way. Even in my daily life, I should be giving all every last penny I have to the poor besides you know buying groceries and clothes for my family and bills ---- all my extra money should all it being going to the poor ---- I shouldn't be making the fun trips to the dollar store down the street I make buying often makeup and perfume's : ) craft supplies : ) magazines : ) I shouldn't be spending no fun money at all, it should all be going to the poor. As much as I suffer in the flesh there is a lot more I could suffer in the flesh and pry should, really I pry should. There's people doing worse then me.....1 Peter 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" Not that I am doing fabulous or anything! But I'm repentful of my lack of giving to the poor and am continually working to give more to do better - do a few less trips to the dollar store will work to do.....to be able to give more money to the poor.
I'll admit here....the thing I super love about the apostolic christians is their deep acknowledgement of the state they are in of being "scarcely saved" it's good to know where you stand, it's good to be acknowledging of the fact that "oh ya I'm scarcely saved" we should all give our all everyday, be zealous of good works, do all the good we can in a day, give our absolute all everyday --- shoot for that anyways.
There is victory over sin though to be had 1 Corinthians 15:57
"But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." I'm sure of that! But I'm still scarcely saved, there are still poor people I should be feeding, I shouldn't go to the dollar store ever, ever be buying anything for myself ever besides food to eat and clothes on my back, I should be giving my ever last penny to the poor, and out on the streets preaching everyday all day long or out on the streets some preaching to all not be "scarcely saved" there's a lot none us are doing that we ought to be doing.
I'll admit to you and I'm repentful of it, but I admit, I do the barest of minimum of following jesus most days ---- there are super solid days following jesus I have I believe where I get it all right, were I'm totally having my cross up and totally am giving my last penny to the poor I think those days have happened for me some.....but on a whole I'm scarcely saved.
So I guess you accompished your mission of shaming a smith's friend - one point for your team : )
I take back one point for your team comment cause I shouldn't be mean like that. I need to just accept it I'm scarcely saved and do my best, and that not everyone is going to like me.
Smith's friends should though be preaching the gospel all over the earth, but I'm only 1 person I can't do much about that to change that. There is a real actual point for the anti the smith's friends team and it is a whole group of people online that are very against the smith's friends that exist you aren't the only member of that group ---- so 1 point there for reals for your team. Not saying that to be mean your team get's 1 point!
I don't know who's team I'm on : ) hahahahahahahahah I might be a apostolic christian for reals. If the smith's friends are a cult, in that event then I pry am really apostolic christian, I do enjoy fellowshiping w/the apostolic christians much!
christian blog, harold, sophie and others: I haven't abandoned this thread. My work has kept me quite busy the past week. As soon as I have more time, I hope to respond to some of your comments. Thanks for your patience.
===
Keith
"God's Kid": Just wanted you to know that I got your note several weeks ago. Sorry I didn't let you know before now. Thank you for your encouraging words...and your prayers.
Christian Blog: You said: I should be like john the baptist out there eating locust's "subsisting off whatever" preaching preaching all day long --- I should be! That's giving my all pry. That's going full blast on the narrow way. Even in my daily life, I should be giving all every last penny I have to the poor besides you know buying groceries and clothes for my family and bills ---- all my extra money should all it being going to the poor ---- I shouldn't be making the fun trips to the dollar store down the street I make buying often makeup and perfume's : ) craft supplies : ) magazines : ) I shouldn't be spending no fun money at all, it should all be going to the poor.
John the Baptist is a great example of how God uses different people for different purposes. But not everyone in the Bible did what John the Baptist did (eating locusts and honey). Some were used to build boats to survive a flood, some were used to lead a nation out of slavery, some were to be rescued out of a lions’ den or out of a fiery furnace to show God’s power and comp assion, and some were the recipients of being healed. One was used to hide a baby in a basket, while one was used to find that same baby in the basket. Each of us can be used by God to play a different role in being a witness or spreading the Good News. John the Baptist ate locusts and honey and went around the countryside preaching. That was his calling, his job that God prepared him to do. God gives different people different gifts, talents, abilities, opportunities in life which makes them who they are. And there are different seasons or times in our lives to be used by God for different purposes. We can’t all be John the Baptists nor should we try to be. But, we do need to be obedient to what God is calling us to do at that time.
You mentioned that you stay home and clean house and play with your child. Are you teaching your child about God, and His love while you are with him/her? Are you teaching your child that the Word of God teaches absolutes about things like lying, stealing, murder, how to treat others with love and compassion? If so, then you are perhaps doing what you can and should be at this particular time in your life….sharing God with another very important person, your child.
In reading 1st Corinthians chapters 12 and 13, we see that God gives different people different gifts for different purposes but all are important to God. In chapter 13:3, it says, “And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
Matt 5:46 says, “For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax –gatherers do the same?”
Perhaps at another time in your life you will be used by God in a different way…maybe even on a mission field in Africa or China, but for now perhaps you can minister where you are at this time in your life. You can even help those on the missions’ fields by being a financial contributor.
But, you also mentioned spending money on craft supplies. Perhaps God gave you an interest in crafts which can be a tool to reach out to others right in your own neighborhood or community. To some, He gave gifts or interests in sports, to some an interest in animals, to some music, to some He gave art, etc. Whatever gifts/talents God gives to us we can use to witness/share with others who may have those same interests. You may not be in Africa, but you can always witness to someone while you’re involved in your own community doing things like making crafts, play dates at the park or swimming pool with your child and his/her friends, little league teams, Vacation Bible School, birthday parties, visiting local nursing homes, or even just spending quality time with your own family. Perhaps they need to see that light as much as people in Africa. We can be a witness for Christ without totally giving away ALL of our finances to the poor. Real Christianity isn’t done only in a church building while preaching “victory over sin”, it is done in everyday life. SF’s may sound more zealous than the average church, but how are they SHOWING their love for God or anyone outside their group? Time is a very important commodity to God. You cannot be a viable witness and show love to others without giving of your time. As I’ve said before, we can SAY anything we want but it’s our actions that witness the loudest to others.
Philippians 2:3-4 says, “Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.”
Matt 5:15-16 says, “Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a peck-measure; but on the lampstand; and it gives light to all who see it. Let your light so shine in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven.”
Several of the local churches in our community have teams of people who go to Mexico to build houses for the underprivileged, clean up houses and yards around cities like Chicago, New Orleans, Dallas, etc. Others may take meals to shut-ins or minister to the homeless. We even had a group from a local church that went out and helped people clean up their yards after the recent ice storms this winter. Some of these people were not even part of that church. These same groups of people are not perfect, nor do they claim to be, but they do show others Christ’s love through their work. They’re not working to get higher on God’s good list, nor are they trying to work to gain salvation, they’re doing these things because they love God and want to show His love to others. Some may say they’re doing this to get monies from them. Typically, people in these types of situations have nothing to give back to those who helped them. All, they want is to show Christ through their actions. “You will know them by their fruits.”
I agree with you sophie, all the smith's friends that aren't e-mailing me back (some them I have even tried to e-mail several times w/0 luck) are indicative of people bearing good fruit. None the enemies of the church though can take down the smith's friends and god's just not taking them down!
And lot of bearing "good fruit" is caring about each other you are right, making time like bible verse you found for one another. I still at times struggle to not think they are THE body of christ on earth like the smith's friends say they are --- they are sooooooooooooo extremely wealthy, (though I have noticed extreme tragdedies do happen in the smith's friends a slew ---- lot's of smith's friends w/weird rare illnesses, they fall ill a lot in my opinion) god just keeps blessing them and blessing them and blessing them their families just keep getting bigger and bigger they keep getting richer and richer. I look for god? I wonder "well what the hell" is god really for the smith's friends cause HE don't appear to be stopping them none? W/the smith's friends to me it feels like my enemies are triumphing over me - I say they are my enemies not that I myself am actively trying to be their enemy but they are actively not returning my e-mails so in my view making themselves to be some enemy of mine.
Somedays I think hmmmmm if I hang out w/the smith's friend maybe god will bless me some. Nothing goes right for me, it's like I am truelly cursed, I seriously have 0 friends, haven't had any friends for 4 years, many days I just sit around depressed all day, my family I don't even know they have a system in which they do not call or e-mail me ever and refuse to do so, my dad I overheard him telling my mom "oh just let her call you once every two weeks" when my mom was talking about sending me a e-mail. So my family is gone, besides my husband and my kids that's what I got, I am poorer then all heck. All my clothes are from the goodwill I cannot afford nothing but 2nd hand, I was though even worse off for awhile I at least have health care now, for awhile I was on WICK, and government healthcare, and living in one those low income appartments -- it was bad, back then I did all I could and still do to follow jesus hoping god would bless me.
I do sit at smith's friends church wondering ok what are they doing that I'm not for them all to be that wealthy??? I haven't figured it out yet : ) hahahahahah But they are affilicted w/many illnesses and freak medical conditions so my envy of them only goes so far.
Nobody can take down the smith's friends they are laughing at all your blog posts right now pry! I'd imagine so anyways.
Deuteronomy 28:1-2 "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God." I tend to believe the smith's friends fleshes are all crucified to their lusts and desires fully, that they are as wealthy as they are ----- my flesh is down hey god hello send some that blessing this way please!
IN reply to Christian Blog's post on June 4th:
You speak about God rewarding the Smith's friends with earthly blessings.I think it would help you to know, that very few of them live lives of financial ease. In fact, as an active member, I have to say hat the majority live simple lives, with very little financial obligations, and not a lot of salary either. My family for instance, has collectively never earned above the 'poverty line', however, we lacked for nothing as children.
Where you are right, is that God does bless those who are faithful. I sincerely doubt that he blesses them with big cars, houses etc, as it clearly states that it is very difficult for rich people to enter the kingdom of heaven. I have experienced God's blessing in my life in many other ways though. Parents who love each other dearly after 30 years of marriage, 4 siblings who are some of my best friends, etc. I have been blessed with happiness, joy, peace and victory over the sin that lies in my human nature, all of which is priceless, and I would much rather have. Like Paul said (and I am paraphrasing a bit here): though I have nothing, I abound! 9if someone could help me find this verse, that would be great.
Anyhow, a huge point of a christian life is not to lay value on the outward things, but to truly value God's will. That is not to say we have to force ourselves to live in poverty and hardship for the rest of our lives. we just have to come free from having our happiness and contentment dependent on material possessions.
I e-mail my husband what people and I post on this site, this is my husband's reply (I'm like so 100% agreeing w/my husband asked him if I could post this up - my family been shunned by the smith's friends for a long long long time we've had a lot of time to think about this stuff)......
It's a shell game. They can very easily claim that they don't earn much
and that they are poor. But, part of that is because they put their money
back into the church. It's hard to buy the "most of us are poor" line when
you look at what the church has. Basketball courts, a pool, giant new
building, coffee shop in the main building, fancy media system, etc... If
the members were poor, there is no way they could afford to buy all that.
The money comes from somewhere. And, if they say that they can afford it
because their members work for them for free (or close to free) and they
can use that money to get those things, then it is (as I said above) a
shell game. It's like people who work under the table to avoid paying
taxes. Their official earnings for the year may be $20,000, but they are
earing $40,000 under the table. So, while on paper they may be poor, the
reality is they are not. Same with many of the Salem Fellowship people.
Many of them may officially earn under the poverty line, but if they are
also working for the church for free, they are actually earning more than
what it seems. It's easy to get by on less money if you have a place you
can go to swim, let your kids play, free (or cheap) childcare, etc, etc,
etc... When you don't have to pay for a lot of things people normally have
to pay for, because you can get it for "free" at your church, it's much
easier to live on less money.
The bottom line, for me at least, is that it is hard to believe the
assertion that most of the members of Salem Fellowship are poor when you
look at their church. That is not the church of poor people. And, if it
is, perhaps they should take some of the money that is earned by Macleay
Solutions and pay the members who are doing the work a bit more money so
they can get above the poverty line instead of adding on to this
multi-million dollar facility and going deeper into debt. Hmmmm... Now
that I think about it, maybe they are all poor. One of the stupid things
poor people do to keep themselves poor is to go deeper and deeper into debt
by buying things they can't really afford on credit... :-P
But, really, I just don't believe that the majority of them are "poor"
when looking at that church.
christian blog: Sophie asked you what you did to “lose my life” for Christ. Your response was to say that you focus on your children, maintain your home, and try to consider others before yourself. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. Are you implying that there are no other people outside of SF that are trying to do the same thing? The point others have tried to make is that most people, including non-Christians, try to live a moral and upstanding life. Some are farther along the path than others, but NOBODY is perfect. We are all human and descendents of Adam and Eve. We can strive to get there but won’t lose this earthly body until we die. So there is nothing wrong with what you said but the difference is that most of us recognize that we are sinners and we strive to overcome.
The problem with the SF group in this community is that they claim to have “victory over sin” and yet they have threatened other people here with legal action. They have threatened others here with physical violence. They have intentionally caused damaged to the lives and relationships of other good Christian families. The path of destruction left by these people is well-known and yet they claim to be more holy than the rest of the Christian community.
This reminds me of the parable told by Jesus in Luke 18:8-14 of the Pharisee and the tax collector where the Pharisee prayed about himself; “God, I thank you that I am not like other men, robbers, evildoers, adulterers- or even like this tax collector.” But the tax collector prayed to God; “God have mercy on me, a sinner”. And what did Jesus say about these two men? It was the tax collector that went home justified before God.
So don’t beat yourself up over the idea that they are any better than you. It may be that you are the one justified before God rather than some of them. At least you recognize that you are a sinner, and need a savior.
Unfortunately a lot of people believe that God’s blessings will come in the form of money. Could it be that SF wealth is not a blessing from God, but from somewhere else? I think, christian blog that all of us at times need to take a step back and count our blessings. You have a husband, children, and health care. You obviously have a computer and access to the internet, a roof over your head and food to eat. In God’s economy, you could be very wealthy.
Heather: I agree with what you said. At least we are on the same page regarding this subject.
One thing bothers me though regarding what Christian blog wrote regarding Macleay Solutions. This seems to be a rather large construction company in Salem Oregon. I get the impression that a lot of the SF people in that fellowship work for that same company. Is this true, or did I get the wrong impression?
On a different subject, I came across a publication the other day that has a list of statements that can be used to identify coercive groups. I thought this was very good and relevant.
1.The group seems to be perfect. Everyone agrees and follows all orders cheerfully.
2.The group claims to have “all the answers” to your problems.
3.You are asked to recruit new members soon after joining.
4.You begin to feel guilty and ashamed, unworthy as a person.
5.The group encourages you to put their meetings and activities before all other commitments.
6.The group speaks in a derogatory way about your past religious affiliations.
7.The group insists your parents and friends are unable to understand and help you with religious matters.
8.Your doubts and questions are seen as signs of weak faith. You are shunned if you persist in these doubts.
9.Leadership of the group is mostly male, and males in general are believed to have different rights and abilities than females.
10.You are invited on a retreat with the group, but they won’t give you an overview of the purpose, theme, or activities before you go.
This publication goes on to say that if you can answer ‘yes’ to any three of these statements, you should seriously reconsider your involvement.
About macleay solutions....If they are paying anybody I don't know about it? (if macleay solutions is anything but church volunteer labor that's news to me) I confronted a sister over macleay solutions asking her "isn't that stealing people's jobs" her reply to me was "it's a free market society".
I went on a cross country ski trip once with some sisters - nothing weird about the trip? We went ski'd had pizza afterwards.
My feelings about the smith's friends are conflicted, in my opinion some them are pure "evil" their message is sooo on the bar, and the rest of christianity is missing the bar as far as the material that all of mainstream christian preachers have for their sermons on sundays in all of america/the world. There could be that 1 hitting the bar outside the smith's friends - but I cannot find it, and I've tried I've been to a slew of denominations and churches in general and haven't found it at all outside the smith's friends.
On a brighter note : ) last night at my daughters school, both my kids (my youngest is only 3) got books and cookies and juice and made clifford the big red dog magnets....I was super feeling like some christian in christ love there at that school's bookfare last night for reals. It was sooooooooo nice. I left feeling super loved on by some christians. (they even played "I got peace like a river, I got joy like a fountain, I got peace like a river in my soul" on the bookwalk game) awesome school my oldest goes to!
Christian Blog
My dear friend, you have written
reams and reams recently, and it is
a little hard to follow, but I do
know how you feel. My advice, either repent to sv or forget them
all together, you are being torn
apart. I'm not still real clear why they are blackballing you unless you are still contending with them. Honey, you will never
win. I think you need to settle
in your own heart what you want. If it is they, then do it but as long as you feel some of them are
pure evil,(and verbalize it ) you are going to be miserable. There are people in the
mainstream who I think are pure evil, calling people witches and
jezebells etc. People can be vile.
I believe there are many who read this site are pulling for you. I would like to reccomend some of Neil T Andersons books,like victory over the darkness. It may dispell some incorect thinking you have over mainstream. Sadly many people do have a greasy grace mentality. I think part of your understanding of salvation may be clouded by indoctrination by sv against mainstreamers. No mainstream christian believes it is ok to sin , any way not a healthy one. Please understand, sv theology is not as unique as u believe it to be. I am thinking of another fellow to When I remember the web site to refer you to i will bup it on this post if it is ok with Keith, (this is a respectable bunch and in no way assoc. with sv.
Anyway, I just want to encourage
you, you have some decisions to make, if you choose mainstream it
will involve some work, but I believe you are up for the task and
I do believe you can find people
who are like minded that arnt quite
so sectarian.
If you are in Oregon I know of some
people in Idaho who might could
help you if you are willing.
Heather: You said: “I have experienced God's blessing in my life in many other ways though. Parents who love each other dearly after 30 years of marriage, 4 siblings who are some of my best friends, etc. I have been blessed with happiness, joy, peace and victory over the sin that lies in my human nature, all of which is priceless, and I would much rather have.”
It’s good to hear that your parents have been married for so long. I’m glad for you that your family is at peace, joyful, happy, etc. However, there are many other families that aren’t part of the SFs that also are at peace, happy, joyful, and have lengthy marriages. Unfortunately, it sounds as if one such Christian family who has deep moral convictions, raised their children with such, and was very close, and was probably at peace, joyful, and happy until they were separated by a local SF fellowship. And it is clear from other statements on this blog that separating families is part of the SF teaching. How do you feel belonging to a group that endorses such behavior? Obviously having strong family ties is important to you, so do you believe it is Christ-like to intentionally tear families apart?
You said also that you have ‘victory over sin’. I have been seeing that phrase used over and over in this thread. We’ve heard Bratlie’s definition, but what do YOU mean?
Christian blog: I’m not clear as to why you still believe this group called SF is THE church, THE bride of Christ, THE only real Christians, THE way to heaven? The Bible states in 1st Samuel 16:7, “But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” Just because a person belongs to a certain group here on the earth doesn’t mean he will have a ticket into heaven. I’ve been a student of God’s Word for many years, yet have never seen the words SMITH’S FRIENDS, Johann Smith, Kare Smith, Elias Aslaksen, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Jim Jones, David Koresh, or any others who have claimed they and their followers are THE only ones going to heaven. There are Christians from Baptist churches, Presbyterian churches, Lutheran churches, Methodist, Catholic, ……well you get the idea; not every person from every one of these churches is going to heaven just because he belongs to that church, nor are they ALL going to hell because they DON’T belong to SFs. Only God knows the person, and their relationship to Him. That’s why He gets to judge who gets into heaven and who doesn’t. We don’t.
I would encourage you to reread Romans. But there are a few verses which I’d like to print here. 2:ll) For there is no partiality with God. 2:21 and 22) you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one should not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? Chapter 3:21, “But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
So, is SF the ONLY group going to heaven? The Bible is clear that God doesn’t show favoritism or distinctions between denominations, only that Christ died for ALL who believe in HIM. ‘While we are YET SINNERS, Christ died for us’. We will be victorious over sin in heaven because we who have faith in Christ are the bride of Christ; we will be taken up into heaven where there is NO SIN.
Just a question for the fun of it (and please believe me when I say for the fun of it...this is not a doctrinal point I find needful to expound upon)
If there is no sin in heaven, how did Satan fall?
and Sophie: thanks for your questions. I will think on them and get back to you!
Wait heather you a smith's friend right? I like your question : ) "if there is no sin in heaven how did satan fall?" : ) I always am rolling my eye's to the heaven's when the anti-smith's friends make mention of no longer sinning anymore once they get to heaven. Satan did sin in heaven for sure! People's in heaven if they aren't going to sin in heaven, it surely is because they were "overcomers" on this earth, and not cause they were transformed into some heavenily bodies! Man satan sinned a slew in heaven, he didn't just sin he went for the entire enchilada! So good question : ) I like that : )
Heather: Your question is very interesting and I have been waiting to see if anyone responds to it. So I guess I will take the bait and jump in…just for fun.
References - Eze 28:11-19, Rev 12:7-9, 2Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6
Angels are created beings and have the freedom to obey or not. So they have a free will just like us. Those that chose to sin against God were cast out of heaven, just like Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden. So sin does not exist in heaven because God does not allow it.
For us, refer to Rev 21:27 “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.” We will not have earthly (fleshly) desires that we deal with here on earth. Romans 6:7 “…because anyone who has died has been freed from sin”.
Once we are in heaven things will be different because Jesus said in Mat 22:30 “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”
What I found interesting is that just after Jesus said this is when the Pharisee’s tested Him with the question about the greatest commandment. Jesus’ reply was Mat 22:37-40 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Is it loving your neighbor when your church group deliberately causes damage to other good Christian family relationships, threatens people with frivolous law suits and physical violence? Is that what Jesus is talking about when He says “Love your neighbor as yourself”? Is that how SF spreads the Good News of the Gospel? That is the behavior witnessed in this community. How does this behavior line up with Rev 21:27 when it says nothing impure will enter, or any who does what is shameful or deceitful? The NAS version says “nothing unclean” and “no one who practices abomination and lying”.
Last brother that posted made mention of Romans 6:7 "For he that is dead is freed from sin." I worry when verses like that are posted all by themselves. Cause you aren't supposed to wait til your dead and buried in the ground to be "freed from sin" the verses around Romans 6:7 also pertinent.... 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
And it appears at least 1 person is being paid working for "macleay solutions" - not sure if more then 1 are being paid, but least 1 person's being paid looks to be a large chunk of change a year.
Not anti the smith's friends, not anti the anti the smith's friends --- so everyone knows my stance.
Angels did sin, and satan sinned, they sinned in heaven, it's like we like overcome sin, uhhhhhh and brother that posted last is right no unclean or whatever lieing whatever person will enter in, we got to uhhhhh stop sinning now, and love each other now, ya : )
Christian Blog: So you believe that people have to “overcome” sin on this earth in order to go to heaven? I guess that these SF members don’t want to get to heaven very badly because they sure don’t seem to be “trying to overcome” their sins. The lying, deceiving, secrecy, and separating friends and family members has hurt many other people; including this girl. Earlier Fisherman said to trust that “no harm” will come to her. Unfortunately, it seems as if it has if her life-long relationships have been intentionally destroyed. Hurting other people is definitely a sin. God makes it VERY clear that we are to love one another. Jesus came to “seek and save”. Satan came to “destroy”. So these SF need Jesus just like the rest of us. Jesus is the “…Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, John 1:29.
Now if indeed the smith's friends believe this then this is of their "secret" beliefs cause in 10+ years I have been in association w/them I have never heard this before......Matthew 22:11-12: "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless." Here jesus clean asks "how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" The feast is called the "marriage supper of the lamb" implies to me these are the bride of christ eating here.
Jesus invited many and they made many excuses they weren't willing or wanting to give up everything to follow jesus one had to til some land another marry a cousin etc. etc. : ) jesus says to them.....Luke 14:24 "For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper." They were pry good people, no doubt worthy people, they refused to take up their crosses and follow jesus. That they wont be able to "taste of my supper" speaks to me that no madder how many "good" things this group of people do, they ain't going to get to taste of jesus supper --- or how good those people actually are even!
Not that I believe people are saved by their works, the bride of christ all those who are christ's.....Galatians 5:24
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." With their lives laid down and their lusts crucified, and their hearts burning for jesus ---- should be automatic the good works needed like done in our daily lives to make for clothing for us at the wedding feast......following jesus a person I believe gains wedding garments.
So I believe yep I kinda lean towards to believe, you pretty much have to follow jesus, have to overcome sin while on this earth ----- anyone that doesn't do that is on some extra shaky risky super risky ground ---- hell is horrid we should all fear god and just not give into the lusts of the flesh no more!
Christian blog: “So I believe yep I kinda lean towards to believe, you pretty much have to follow jesus, have to overcome sin while on this earth ----- anyone that doesn't do that is on some extra shaky risky super risky ground”. I would agree with you on that statement and many more, however, I’m still trying to understand why you believe the SF have actually ‘overcome’ their sinful nature? What is it they have done and what is it that others have not done to make you believe they are THE Bride of Christ?
1 John 1:8-10 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives.”
Again, I’d like to mention people like Billy Graham, Keith Wheeler, James Dobson, Kay Arthur, C.S. Lewis, and Josh McDowell and how God has used them to further His Kingdom. Are any of them perfect? No. But, do they continue to practice in sin? Only God knows a man’s heart. But, this is where 1 John 1:9 says, “If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” None of these people are part of the SF group, yet they love God and have done much to witness to the lost. Again, can you tell me what SF has done to share the Gospel with anyone? How have they helped you for instance?
I grew up in mainstream christianity I never in all my childhood heard about the way jesus paved, through the veil that is his flesh at all! I didn't even know what that was til I got to the smith's friends, so that is the good thing the smith's friends have done for me, gave me the ability to understand god's word, and see clearly the way jesus paved through the veil that is his flesh --- the way for me to follow --- crucifying my flesh to it's lusts and desires, denying myself taking up my cross and following jesus daily. In mainstream christianity all I knew as a kid/teen was jesus is this nice loving christ who came to save me and accept him as my savior and say the sinner's prayer and walla I'm saved by this nice hippy christ. Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." God wishes for us to crucify our fleshes to their lusts and desires, to deny ourselves and take up our crosses and follow jesus daily, we supposed to be like dead w/christ basically - been hard for me to be dead w/christ I not much able to be part of the hip crowd anymore dragon boat post practice I drank 1 beer and tried my best often I feel like the extra cog on this earth anymore. For better or worse good and dead w/jesus. (jesus wants us to be in good physical shape though I believe, I do not believe jesus is against fitness)
Smith's friends motivated me I have christina aguilara song "fighter" on one my blog posts http://smithsfriendsinfosource.blogspot.com/2008/06/thanks-for-making-me-fighter-salem.html
smith's friends made me a fighter
it's a good thing! For reals I ain't bsing none you at all, holy spirit super wants me to go to smith's friends church - I always give the holy spirit his way so. (often the holy spirit wants me to go to the apostolic christian church to) Holy spirit has slews to say to me at smith's friends churches, holy spirit definately wants to tell me something....I'm determined to listen (one day I was just paying attention to the holy spirit at smith's friends church, not at all listening to what the ultra holy spirit filled brother was testifying to in front the church --- I have a ongoing fascination w/the holy spirit - holy spirit clean left me figured out I wasn't even listening to that brother and like clean chastened me ----- I was surprised I didn't know that was possible --- I was like out loud like "hey wait", so the holy spirit came back I promised to all listen) So I pay like extra attention to the holy spirit now, whatever the holy spirit wants, that's what I'll do! Holy Spirit can apparently only tell me what He so desire's to tell me at the smith's friends church for like now, or like next sunday ------ sunday after that the holy spirit might want me to go to the apostolic christian church that happens! Hope I answered your questions some sophie I tried, it's late I'm pooped.
Yes, we should all try to overcome sin but we are all descendents of Adam and Eve so we all have it in us and we struggle with it. Sometimes we mess up. Even Paul struggled. For me I always come back to John 28:29 “Then they asked Him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent."
So I can’t be good enough or work hard enough. I need a propitiator named Jesus Christ. That doesn’t give me a free license to keep on sinning because God knows my heart. The deal with the SF group is that Bratlie defines sin as that which is “…my understanding of good and evil”. So you have YOUR understanding of good and evil, I have MY understanding, everyone has their OWN understanding. They ignore God’s definition of good and evil and choose their own. Isn’t that what got Satan cast out of heaven?
Christian Blog: There are many churches but only one Bible. To think that SF is the only organization that has ALL the answers is dangerous. That spirit that you are listening to may not be the Holy Spirit. And how can you tell the difference? It’s not always easy, but the Bible does tell us to “…test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1Jn 4:1 And “They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.” Jer 23:16
Keith: Elf said they aren’t interested in “free” sermons. Christian Blog says they have to buy a de-scrambler in order to watch their meetings. How many other things are they required to purchase in order to be a part of this group? Almost any large church today will publish their sermons on the web for ANYONE to listen to. Jesus didn’t charge any money when He preached. Is this fulfilling the “Great Commission” when people have to pay money to hear it? And then you have this Macleay Solutions thing. Something doesn’t smell right.
Hi all, I do most of my blogging
at night, it has been crazy busy
lately, so anyway.
So Christian Blog, youve decided
to hook back up with SV. I just
want to reiterate: The beliefs are
not all so unique, the terminology
is just a little different. Well ok
a lot different, and then you got
this Jesus being God, or was he when he was in his flesh. Thats the one I have trouble with. He
sure believed he was God, the phariasees tried to stone him for saying so.
All of this conversation has got
me thinking, Initally I started out
to grumble about SF. I got to won-
dering why . I realized I was still carrying around tons of resentment. Then I remembered about unforgiveness keeping you under the law, sounds like a bad plan to me. Have any of you ever read the importance of forgiveness by John Arnott. It is excellent, Amazing for a Mainstreamer, to have such revelation. Well, anyway, catch you all later
I was entertained "jarsmom" w/you last post saying "amazing that a mainstreamer would have such revelation" hahahahah : ) I like that : )
So I will be near salem fellowship the smith's friends church I went to 10+ years this weekend am thinking about going there - should I take a picket sign with?????? What I'd like to write on my picket sign.......
forms of fundraising that are ok
catching chickens
tearing down buildings/sheds
mowing lawns
selling cookies door to door
fundraising via working at sports arena's
car washes
building a few ships maybe (with much prayer first)
building a few $300,000+ dollar homes in norway maybe (with much prayer first)
forms of not ok fundraising.....
Macleay solutions
James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
Salem fellowship is at "macleay christian retreat" so they have a whole christian retreat of which they make revenue, it's a slew of revenue they have coming in. I think macleay solutions if it isn't already all paid employee's that it for sure should be.......there is taking fundraising to far a church can do that. God's blessing would be over macleay solutions only in the scenario of a church was really poor and started a buisiness for their poor members to work at to make a living ---- without any fundraising to support africa or none that sort of buisiness attached to it. House of god isn't supposed to be a massive cash machine - it's supposed to be about saving people.
I'd like all that on my protest sign ----- it's going to have to be a huge sign. Maybe have to buy 2 poster boards for it. Pry parade in front the church before the service : ) If I get kicked off the premises ----- then they aren't the body of christ!
I'm not about being mean, I'm about being heard. And I am in conflict I guess w/some the smith's friends beliefs : ) well I was never let in their inner circle but 15 minutes I was told I was in : ) in 10+ years hahahahahah Jesus definately was some part of god in the flesh, he clean said "I am" jesus clean said "I am" but I believe he took of all what godness about himself, fully humbled himself made himself to be in the fashion of a man, and a servant, fully a man tempted in all points yet without sin.....so pretty well jesus was a man w/a flesh. He had to have a flesh just like us to pave the way "through the veil that is his flesh" he wasn't a sacrifice on a alter for our sins only ---- he paved a new and living way "through the veil that is his flesh" a new way to live, jesus is the way, the truth, the life - through him, through following him, eating his flesh drinking his blood, denying ourselves daily and taking up our crosses.....for me to live is christ, and to die is gain!!!!!.......I'm still protesting macleay solutions : ) I'd never go for macleay solutions not even if I was super dooper dooper in the inner circle......there's 0 turning of shadow w/god there just isn't ever! I don't even like salem fellowship post their big remodel that much they all think it's just fab and heaven on earth and so fab, to me it's just a building I was always about the faith, getting zeal getting fire for god's word, I never cared so much what the building is like.....I don't really care, rather they clean sell macleay christian retreat, get out of debt get a little church and get back to what matters the most and that surely isn't money!!!!!!!!
Jarsmom: You stated: “I realized I was still carrying around tons of resentment”. So why do you think you are carrying around tons of resentment? What has SFs done to cause you resentment?
Wow! It's been a while since I've posted here. A lot to read and try to comprehend!
Harold: Responding to your comment about the "free sermons," I would whole-heartedly agree. Our church gives away CDs and DVDs of all of our services to ANYONE and EVRERYONE that wants them. We also post all of the pastor's sermons on our website...all FREE of charge. Our sound/audio-visual guys see it as their ministry to get the Word out. They wouldn't take a dime for the time and effort they put into videoing (is that a word?) and editing the DVDs, etc.
Our church also goes out twice a month and takes a "welcome" bag to newcomers in the neighborhoods. We include information about our church, a Bible and several CDs/DVDs. Unlike the apparent attitude of the local SF group, we WANT people to come and be a part of our congregation. We advertise our meeting times/places on a regular basis. If you can't find us...you're not trying!!! Can't say that for the SF's here.
Charging for sermons, decoders, etc. seems like just another way of limiting their membership which doesn't sound like the "Great Commission" as Jesus stated it..."Go into ALL the world..."
I didn't end up making it to smith's friends "salem fellowship's" service last night, cause my dragon boating team won 1st place medals for our division : ) and I wanted to stay after and get my medal enjoy the moment : )
Billy Rae Cyris says "more a person steps in poop the more it's going to stink" The smith's friends poop is starting to get way stinky I think : ) hahahahahah
The smith's friends they no reply to my e-mails most them, they have openly talk about their "inner" and "outer" circle aka. they openly confess to shutting members of their church out - I believe all that is is iniquity that the smith's friends have/are working towards me.....Psalm 6:8 "Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping."
The world does it to though, I have 0 friends ---- I'm never good enough, my clothes are never nice enough ---- I've just about given up trying so hopeless such a hopelessness I feel on that issue. I'm like never ever cool enough. (I have 2 kids I can only be so cool, I just can't go out and party party to be all in the hip crowd do that all "cool" thing or whatever).
God isn't for all this iniquity though I don't think? Think god would prefer me to have friends?
Me and my husband are for sure the smith's friends believe they are above heeding the word of god ----- that they think themselves to be so fabulous that they just don't need to heed god's word. I believe all the smith's friends view themselves as the holy elect of god and you all we all are pieces of earthly shit in their minds ---- less --- the peasants --- that's how I was personally made to feel the 10+ years I attended their church always made to feel like I was something much less then them.
The world no loves me cause I ain't a part of it either, not part of the smith's friends either, not going to work iniquity. There's 0 I could've done to be in their inner circle, I was labeled a reject and that was that.
Even though it looks like god is for the smith's friends they having millions actually probably billions in realistate, and are keeping getting richer and richer and being mean to as many people as they wish (shutting people out their church like myself) god can't be for that, or them. At all. They may even be raising the dead and doing many good things and healing people's....god ain't for iniquity.
There's 0 turning of shadow w/god James 1:17 We supposed to care about each other, and love each other that's the look of the real body of christ. It's not enough that the smith's friends love each other if they do Luke 6:33
"And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same." I have mailed the sister that brought me to that church my prayer scarves (at that time believing that cause I'm leaving the smith's friends I'm going to hell) and have even after leaving them been sending them money (5 dollars here and there but still) I'm loving my enemies in doing that I believe and doing good to them my enemies they are not doing no good to me that I know of????? Besides I still have a guess password to log in to their secret password protected sites some them anyways.
I don't expect myself to have any thank to give to the smith's friends once I get to heaven.
I greately believe in my opinion extremely extremely extremely much they are stealing people's jobs I believe in my opinion so I don't get sued MUCH people's jobs w/macleay solutions. Online there's a list from 2006 of their paid employee's and only 1 person is listed, that matches what I heard a brother say in front of salem fellowship after macleay solutions started up (he said there was at that time only 1 paid employee but that they were planning on paying more people in their church in the future) yelena told me when I was having a huff over macleay solutions "oooooh but if you just would've seen the video at church on africa you would feel differently" so it is a "free market society" what the smith's friends extremely appear to be doing making use of the "free market society" w/macleay solutions it's legal......but moral????????
It was sooooo shady that buisiness for the get go, one summer I was just walking around w/my friends and they pointing out the macleay solutions vans - they were on the church grounds for a day (leading brother's appeared to be in some big hurry though to get them off the church grounds again) that was the first I heard first few other's there had heard of "macleay solutions" it was sprung on me, sneakly at a summer conference ---- there was something shady about it.
I lost respect for my youth leader --- who basically got a nice new macleay solutions truck to drive around out of the deal as did a few other leading brothers.
They told me cause I posted on the guestbook trying to send a secret message to another brother or sister can't remember which (cause they were on my case to make all my postings to the entire group so I had no choice but to try to sneak my message to the brother or sister whichever I wanted to encourage) they told me I was confused - I don't believe I was confused at all though, I didn't have that brother or sister's e-mail and wanted to fellowship w/them and send them a encouraging word on the salem fellowship's guestbook and I worded it so it could be edifying and good for the entire group ------ they figured out I was sneaking in a message to that brother or sister cant' remember which but I surely wasn't confused, or I don't believe even doing anything so sooooooo bad, or evil.
It is a battle for that top spot at the smith's friends church brother's work hard for that lead spot James 3:16 "For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work." I don't believe I am the confused party, there is no turning of shadow w/god to where he is going to support a church making use of the "free market society" w/a entire buisiness like macleay solutions. I can't see any confusion that I have anywhere?????? I know the smith's friends have worked iniquity w/me a heap and I think knowing that and knowing "the score" I don't think I'm confused at all.
It's a confused church of people that think it's ok to make use of the "free market society" as sister when I confronted her over macleay solutions told me that it's a "free market society" and that god a person w/0 turning of shadow would support that.
That smith's friends may prosper for long as they are on this earth, but I guarantee you all there is 0 turning of shadow w/god. Seek HIM, while He can be found!!! He is just and good James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." God didn't stop being the awesome god that He is ---- awesome w/much love, much power....just god's awesome!
I don't know where the real believers are with a "true heart" A true heart speaks to me people w/just a slew of love for god/jesus (no interests in buisiness god isn't interested in) Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." Words that came out of that smith's friends mouth "it's a free market society" while discussing macleay solutions that doesn't speak to me of a "true heart" something shady appears to be going down at salem fellowship the smith's friends church I went to 10+ years extremely extremely shady. "having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience" I don't know how a church could if indeed salem fellowship is making use of the "free market society" w/this brother owned construction buisiness how they could have "hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience" how they could drive those white nice macleay solutions trucks around town w/a good conscience?????????????
God will make a way for me in the wilderness, He will make a way, HE is faithful and just, and a helper to the poor and contrite is spirit to those like myself w/0 helper, god will help me, he'll strengthen me and help me. The smith's friends didn't shake my faith.
I believe smith's friends most them going to be in for a "depart from me you workers of iniquity" surprise when they get to heaven......well maybe it'll surprise them hearing those words???? Maybe not??????
Harold
In answer to your question. The most devistating part of my involvement with with sf was when I
was blackballed. I later mended fences with one of my friends there. I moved there to be a part of them and when I realized the lifestyle was driving me crazy I
left. Iwas alone there in that town. I wonder if you can appreciate the hurt that ensues when your best friend tells you to
go take a hike. Totally cast from
a group of people who were your whole life, all because I couldnt
stand the lifestyle, skirts, buns
no tv, no movies etc. But that was
the stipulation when I signed up so
to speak. It was just too much after a while, so in a sense I was
the instrument of my own demise, but my feelings didnt know the difference. Thats the funny thing
about emotions. So I blamed them
for holding me to something I had
previously agreed too. As controling and as manipulative as it may sound, they were just sticking to their own beliefs.
As far as forgivness goes it dosent
matter. Frogivness needs to happen. Unforgivness is a sin and
sin seperates us from God. It is
amazing how much unforgivness ,
resentment and bitternessGod will show us we are carrying around if we let him. Lately I have been cooperating more
with him and letting him show me all kinds of things about me. Its
is truly amazing how freeing it is.
NOt only did I need to forgive SF,
I needed to forgive myself "for doing such a stupid thing" and get
on with my life.
So I hope that helps. Even as you
all are reading this I'll just bet the holy spirit is showing you some
one to forgive, maybe a coworker to
a grade school teacher, he's funny
like that.
Well I guess that about wraps it up for tonignt. Thanks for
listening.
I'm going to work harder to forgive the smith's friends to : ) I'm supposed to love them, hard to love a people storing up bitterness towards them in my heart, but when I am merciful seek for a way to love them....I can find that. Right now I'm listening to Kare smith on their password protected site that I'm at right now, they have new messages every week (they are old archived messages I think???? not sure??? I'm imagining so, but good) Verse that stood out to me tonight....1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Super spoke to me tonight that jesus was "put to death in the flesh" also verse speaking to me heaps lately on the same vein.....1 Corinthians 15:36
"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:" Something I'm zealous for to be made conformable unto jesus's death. I believe there is zeal and oil for my lamp to be zealous to suffer in the flesh, not have things so lavish so luxurious so comfy, it's good sometime's to ruff it Jude 1:19 "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."
I occasional crack and buy a piece of jewelry or 2 it's bad, like "jarsmom" kind of shot myself in the foot there I guess, I mean guess so? Not that I want to like jewelry I am working super hard to love none the things of the earth (I'll get rid of my jewelry swear the stuff off, then crack then buy more and repeat this nut cycle again and again ---- and or all my jewelry goes in a box of which I never open.....nutty war I have w/jewelry) smith's friends these days do watch movies at night, most the young people at salem fellowship watch a movie every night ---- lot's them told me about their movies they were watching they talk amongst themselves about various movies just like rest the earth these days.....I'm bout equal to them on that front, I only watch 2-3 tv shows if that a night and it's been that way for me for years! You know that don't judge less you all want to be judged verse, think sometime's I just go ahead and point my finger ----- which there much I can point my finger at --- I feel like so like it's like never going to happen me being in the "inner circle" such a not possible item. But the apostolic christians have let me in!!!!! They really have! Got to go.
lJarsmom: I really appreciate you telling your story. I have had the opportunity to talk with several former victims of groups like this and they all describe the same emotional trauma. These were not SF but other coercive groups. I can’t say I’ve been there but I know people who have, so I think I know where you are coming from.
So you should be able to appreciate the hurt that ensues when a daughter tells her parents to go take a hike because some group has wormed their way into the middle of their relationship and convinced her that her parents are going to do harm to her. Elf and others established that the teaching from SF includes separating from all family and friends. This group seems to take that a step further. Read 2Tim 3:1-9.
And what is Christian about blackballing someone from the church? Turning their back on you because you don’t measure up to their standards. I can understand being excommunicated from some congregation for some completely immoral act and being unrepentant. But according to your description your only crime was not conforming to their lifestyle rules such as skirts, buns, movies…etc. None of these things are salvation issues. Mat 23:27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.”
You may not perceive your experience as controlling and manipulating, that they were just sticking to their own beliefs, but aren’t they judging you and others based on your lifestyle. What gives them the right to judge others? Isn’t that what cults do? Every religious cult out there says the same thing. They have the real truth. They are the only ones going to heaven. Everyone else is lost and going to hell. Isn’t that manipulative and controlling?
I think it is good that you have found peace and the grace to forgive them. But you didn’t do anything wrong. They are the ones that put you on that guilt trip, and guilt is one of those powerful tools that cults use to manipulate their members.
Christian Blog: You quoted Jude 1:19, “These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.”
That is exactly what this group has done to this girl’s family and her friends…they’ve divided by turning her against them and consuming so much of her time. Let’s remember that satan came to kill, steal, and destroy. The word ‘steal’means to take something away. This group has used scripture and ‘who knows what’ other means to ‘take away’ or ‘steal’ her relationships, interests, time, and probably much more.. Christ came to ‘give’. Satan came to ‘take away’ or ‘rob’. He delights in that. What has this group ‘given’ or done for anyone in this community? They certainly haven’t helped this girl or anyone else who loves her. They’ve divided (stolen). Read the whole chapter of Titus 3 but especially verses 9-10 says, “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
Harold: You suggested we read 2 Timothy 3: 1-9….they are the kind who worm their way into homes of weak-willed women, who are loaded with sins and swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. Interesting!!!!!
Jarsmom: I’m sorry that your best friend all of a sudden told you to take a hike. It is definitely always very hurtful when someone you love and had a relationship with shuns you, and for what…because you didn’t want to wear a skirt, a bun, watch tv, or movies, etc.? Isn’t that being exclusive, legalistic, controlling, and judgmental? It’s a good thing Jesus didn’t act like that or He would never have talked to and eaten dinner with Zachaeus or talked to the woman at the well. And you’re right about forgiveness. It is a sin and all sin separates us from God which is why we so desperately need the grace and mercy of Jesus!! He forgave Zachaeus, the woman at the well, and many more (too many to mention here-those are just some examples). But, He also told them to stop doing what they had been doing (intentionally being selfish and hurting others, aka sinning) and they obeyed. I believe it’s been stated on here before that all parties involved in this particular mess would probably like to see this family whole again. It sounds as if this girl’s family has been deeply wounded and like they just want to have a real and meaningful relationship with this member of their family. I’m sure this group of SF people wouldn’t like it one bit if this same thing was done to them.
A brother of the smith's friends has recently put guilt trip on me (I don't know if to control me maybe?) saying I have said to much about the church that I have sinned going to far -- that's the guilt trip.
Part my reply to him in a e-mail to this smith's friends brother....."God's desire His will is the "perfect will of god" PERFECT! That we give to the poor and have a heart for others to the extent that we do w/less in our daily lives, that we care for others, make a continual effort on that front! That we not be giving into the lusts of the flesh but rather give to the poor, and store up instead treasure's in heaven where moths and rust do not happen!!!!!!!! God wishes people would have food, moreso that there'd be more equality, that there wouldn't be kids on the streets feeling like shit cause their clothes don't measure up. That there isn't a sister in "THE CHURCH" made continually as I am to feel guilt ridden by members of "THE CHURCH" and made to feel like much less like I am cause I am not good enough so I have to be in the "outer circle" HOW IS THAT GOD'S WILL!!!!!"
And as for this girl shut away from her family........I would suspect it is her choice to be away from her family, from all my 10+ years experience w/the smith's friends I've never seen them force someone to stay away from their family ------ I was allowed to visit w/talk to my family as much as I wanted. Has to of been a choice this girl has made to not visit her family ----- and though could be that's a choice supported by the smith's friends ------ I surely never had their support and maybe if I stayed away from my family they would've supported me more that is a possibility. But I do not know of anyone who was told to leave their family of smith's friends church I went to, they all had free range to talk w/whoever they wanted to. Many people at smith's friends church I went to, visited family members outside "the church" it did happen. There was 1 girl I knew that left her family in the smith's friends but it was a thing of her choice, she said her parents were very abusive.
I love the smith's friends I do, there is good about them, they are very zealous and that is good god desires for us to be zealous. This "smith's friends" brother suggests that though the "smith's friends" have many faults that someday they will figure it out.....I need to be saved today though! I need a church to love me today! I not having the time to wait for all this regrouping of "the church" I need to be saved TODAY! : ) As they themselves say today is the accepted day, today is the day for salvation! Who knows if we have a tommorow? I believe it's best to be as zealous to heed the word of god, man give following jesus your all today, give Him your entire heart today! Who knows if we will have a tommorow??????????
So I love the smith's friends I do but don't have the time to wait for them to "regroup" to save my soul in a few years, my soul needs to be saved today! I'm very interested in being saved and set free from sin and being made conformable unto jesus's death today, very much today. : )
Christian Blog.
You’re joking!!!! Right???? If SF is a REAL church, with nothing to hide, why would this ‘brother’ care what you are saying? If they’ve done nothing wrong, why care what you say???? And, so, the question is ‘do you feel guilty?’ Harold said guilt is a common tactic used by cults or coercive groups, whatever you want to call it. They may not come right out and tell you what you can and cannot do (for that would be way too obvious) instead they manipulate by means of guilt and fear. Do you suppose that is what has happened to this girl? Otherwise why would a girl who came from a good home, loving family, and friends, ALL OF A SUDDEN have nothing to do with them, but instead move in with ‘her church’. But, you also have to remember that someone earlier said that SF steadfastly teaches to separate from family. So, although YOU may never have heard this type of teaching, apparently some have. Maybe teaching varies from group to group?
Christian blog: It is interesting that SF would contact you to say you are sinning by saying too much about the church. If what you say is the truth then this is not a sin. And this is still a free country. You have the freedom to speak whatever you want as long as it is truth, and you have the freedom to express your opinion, whether it is right or not. Nobody, and no church, can take that away from you. It is guaranteed by our constitution.
I also have to say that SF cannot save you. There is no church in this world that can save you. Not mine, not SF, none. There is no organization of man that can save you. Acts 16:30-31 is the story of Paul, Silas, and the jailer; “He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’”
Paul didn’t say “Join our church”. He didn’t say “Give us money”, or “do this work”. He simply said “Believe in the Lord Jesus”. It’s that simple. You don’t need SF to be saved.
I would like to make another point about the girl. OK, let’s assume that she wants to leave her family. Is it right for this SF fellowship to allow her to live in their house? Shouldn’t they be working hard to reconcile the family? She had a dorm room at the local university. She had already moved out of the house. What purpose did it serve her family when they moved the girl into their home, other than to further isolate her from her own family? They haven’t worked to reconcile the family. Instead they have worked very hard to replace her family. That is not a church of God.
So Keith, did you notice that the other SF group has gone silent. I wonder if that same brother contacted them?
It's been awhile since I posted here, but I have read some of the comments that've been posted here. Harold, what other SF group are you referring to - the one that has gone quiet?
So good news, some smith's friends prayed for me, and it's long story but now I'm able to sleep at night! : )
Found out today, my apostolic christian aunt believe's I should go to a "little baptist church" nearby that her church she believe's is to far away from me. I suspect apostolic christians are all desiring for me to go to another church cause I yack about the smith's friends a lot. (one the apostolic christian leaders is best friends w/zac poonen who is very anti the smith's friends) and/or they think I'm to worldly, one young brother at the apostolic christian church said..."you know we have another church at blah blah blah street" that's the church they refer people to that they deem to earthly worldly looking acting or whatever (it's a church not on the official apostolic christian church website, that watches tv, and etc. etc. just like regular christians)
I tell some the smith's friends I'm cleaning the inside my cup first, and sometime's that takes awhile ---- then eventually the outside of my cup will be clean also! And just cause I look like I'm all part of this earth it don't mean I am or even desire to be at all!!!!! I'm determined to work even harder then ever, to lay down my life, to give my all to jesus w/all my heart. I am not desiring to be no friend w/this world, nobody should look at me as some cheap 50 cent christian who isn't in the word of god throughout the day in some way shape or form cause I just ain't no 50 cent christian!!!! A lot of christians I uhhhh greately suspect are 50 cent christians aka satisfied w/something less then what god desires for them on a spiritual level. (apostolic christians I think don't like how I still talk about the smith's friends on my blog - my blog I tried to have it mainstream christian and nobody went to it then....if I'm going to go to the trouble of having a blog - I want every entry to be google cataloged to count) God wants us to be zealous on fire for god's word that is what the smith's friends have right! I think w/myself I am a smith's friend whether they believe it or no, it's ok. (I think I'm not able to unbecome a smith's friend) I like being on fire to for god's word, I don't like it when I get lax in my daily life! I'm happiest days I pray a slew ---- surely there is a slew I could use to pray for myself over and others!!!!! When I have that especial cry on my heart to god! There's a bible verse somewhere in bible smith's friends mention often about god searching the earth for whom he can strengthen ---- for that person w/a cry on their heart, someone that wants to be free'd from sin - or press forward Philippians 3:14 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Should we not be zealous for this????? Shouldn't we be on fire daily to live for jesus???? Shouldn't we all all us christians be a very zealous on fire people's ----- it's good, god looks for whom he can stregthen he's looking for that person who'll cry out to him in prayer -- to be that person! And to be on fire to follow jesus, to press forward, forward always w/much zeal "toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God" the prize!!!!! aka jesus! : ) following him pressing towards that prize (jesus)!
I guess you all could talk the apostolic christians into enduring me? If I don't have the apostolic christians in my pocket then I need the smith's friends even more! And that's just how it is. Cause I ain't going to be no un-godfearing, lukewarm christian - NO! If some you want to be all 50 cent christians and that makes you happy well ok - but that's not my thing!
Yukonbound2: I was referring to some of the others that showed up on this blog earlier, such as Heather, 2b2bnot, rhea, and hgdreger. And since you stopped by, let me ask you a question. It seems to be a common practice among SF conference centers to lease out their facilities to other outside organizations for conventions/conferences/concerts...etc. Is this one of the way that local fellowships raise money?
Harold, I am not sure. TheTruth might be better equipped to answer, since he was around the SFs more recently than I was. But I have heard, thru some of my contacts, that that is precisely the point of renting out their local fellowship halls and retreat centers - to raise $. I think a lot of this $ ends up going to headquarters (Brunstad in Norway), but I am not sure...
It is curious that the current SFers have grown quiet... perhaps they have been asked to quiet down by other insiders, or perhaps they have grown weary, or perhaps - PERHAPS - they have realized the futility of their arguments, since their arguments have generally been exposed for their lack of biblical grounding, etc, by the other contributors here.
As I wrote awhile ago, when you GROW UP in a group like this, it can be very very tough to gain an appropriate perspective. And most SFs are born into and grow up in the group.
-yukon
Christian blog, you stated “I love the smith's friends I do, there is good about them, they are very zealous and that is good god desires for us to be zealous.”
So what do you mean when you use the word ‘zeal’ or ‘zealous’? I keep reading on here how ‘zealous’ or ‘on fire’ for God’s Word the SF are. Can you please tell us what it is that SF is doing different from main stream Christian churches that defines them as ‘zealous’ (without referring to Luke 14:25-33).
Like you were a smith's friends right sophie? So you should know how the smith's friends differ on the zeal and fire to heed god's word then the rest of christianity....for 1 they get up and testify on fire for god's word......Ephesians 4:16 "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." That's a problem I see w/mainstream christianity - many churches where "every joint supplieth" isn't happening! When the smith's friends get up and testify "every joint supplieth" "according to the effectual working in the measure of eavery part" like you when they's so zealous for god's word they just need to get up and say thank you jesus : ) "maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love" when every joint get's up and supplieth something, then there is this "increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love" so the church loves each other, so there be love.
And I don't see mainstream christians at all zealous or on fire, maybe cause they ain't getting up and testifying in front their churches if you want to dispute that w/me I guess?.....I don't see mainstream christians super on fire for god's word to clean crucify their fleshes to it's lusts and desires ----- I never see that zeal and fire to heed god's word in mainstream christian NEVER HEAR OF IT! NEVER! With the exception of 1 athee creek sermon on the radio - that's it. Where's the fire?????? Every joint is supplying something in mainstream christianity really????? I don't think they are!!!!!!!
For the purpose of a church being knit together it is good for every joint to supply something every now and then to ---- really get up in front of the church and testify of their faith, their hope, what they's zealous to work towards ---- it's good.
you are not fighting against men on this earth, but the principalities of darkness, takes more then just showing up and singing a nice song or saying a nice prayer every now and then to really win a war against the principalities and hosts of darkness! Takes some fire, some zeal.
Ephesians 5
15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
So that's lot's of songs : ) and thanksgiving, and submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of god, and etc. that's the will of god, and definately for everyone in every church that's going to call itself christian for every part to supplieth something to edify the whole in love. Yep I only see all that going down at the smith's friends churches! For like reals!
But salem fellowship is to far away from me, gas to spendy!
Christian Blog -
Thanks for your most recent post about that which every joint supplieth.
I am a former SF, and am very familiar with their teachings, their practices, and their positive and negative traits.
I think you are taking a very narrow view of "that which every joint supplieth". There are MANY MANY christians out there, who are not in the SFs, who are supplying to their local churches in a variety of ways - some teaach Sunday school, some visit widows, some lead youth groups, some DO get up and share testimonies in church gatherings about what the Lord is teaching them, etc etc. The SFs, it is true, place a lot of emphasis on the believers testifying in local meetings (a practice that I admire and found to be helpful). But there are many ways to serve the Body, as I'm sure you would agree.
Also, I have found MANY "whole hearted" and "zealous" christians in many places. They may not all use the same lingo and terminology as the SFs, but they have a firm love for the Lord, a sincere desire to walk in all their ways with Him, and a firm commitment to spread the Gospel to other beleivers and non-believers (a commitment I found sorely lacking among the SFs - to reach out to unbelievers).
Just some thoughts for your consideration. Have a good weekend.
-yukon
Christian blog: Thank you for your response to my question. So, if I understand correctly, this zeal you’re referring to has to do with the people in this group getting up and testifying verbally about their love for Jesus. Words are great; God gave us language to communicate, but do they DEMONSTRATE that love rather than just talk about it. Talk is cheap; anyone can talk. Even a mute person can ‘talk’ by using sign language. You can tell me all day long that you’re going to buy me a car; but until I see it sitting in my driveway, it doesn’t mean a thing….it’s just talk.
But, do the people in SF GIVE their money or time to missions that build homes for the homeless, pay for medical or vision care, dental care, education, food, whether overseas or here in the states? When Louisiana was hit by Katrina, MANY church congregations, from different denominations, went down there and helped clean up and rebuild the city or feed, and literally rescue people. Someone on here mentioned people going out and helping people in the community clean their yards of debris after an ice storm broke trees (without pay). Or, do members of SF ever go to local nursing homes to do crafts, play games, sing, or anything else with the residents who may be lonely or minister to prisoners. Do they get out among people WHO DO NOT BELONG to SF and minister when there is a death, illness, or other tragedy that hits? Or do they celebrate joyous occasions such as weddings, birthdays, births, holidays, graduations or other special happenings in the lives of people OUTSIDE of SF? Or do they spend time with them forming relationships? From their overzealous, emphatic, misinterpreted teaching of Luke 14, they seem to prefer to separate. How is that being ‘zealous’ or ‘on fire’ for God? Matt. 5:14-16, “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”
Or, what about spending time with young children (even ones outside the group) who may not have both parents in the home due to death, divorce, or any other reason. I know SF does not look favorably upon divorce. It’s not God’s favorite, either. But, we do live in a fallen world and it does happen. So should we sit back and judge people who may be in this situation rather than try to help them? Matt.25:31-46 is a long passage so I won’t type it ALL out here but 34-40 says, “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited Me in, I needed clothes and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you came to visit Me. Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and invite You in, or needing clothes and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in prison and go to visit You?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’”
In a healthy, growing, loving, caring, zealous, vibrant church, you will see people utilizing the gifts that God has given to each of us. As I said earlier, everyone can talk, but not everyone really has the gift of speaking. There is a difference! But, the Bible says that God gives EVERYONE gifts. Not everyone’s gift or talent is the same. Since God creates each of us uniquely, shouldn’t we each use our unique gift to glorify Him in the way He supplies? I don’t know of a scripture that says that every person must stand up in every church service meeting and testify verbally. Some of those people may testify by DOING some of the things I’ve listed above. Maybe their gift is teaching, leading support groups, playing a musical instrument, or singing praises during the church services. There are many behind the scenes jobs that no one even knows about except maybe the person doing them.
I don’t want to ‘sound’ like I’m just totally bashing the SF, I am trying to present a case to answer the original question on here, which was: Is this a cult? Keith and Harold have laid out some of the characteristics defining what a cult is: totalistic, reclusive, and all encompassing are a few. They use fear tactics, lies, and deception (including misinterpreted scripture) to control their members’ behavior. It doesn’t appear that they are really trying to hang out with, minister to, or benefit anyone other than the people in their own group. Romans chapter 2 verse 11 says, “For there is no partiality with God.” If there is no partiality with God, and we are His children and supposed to be ministering, should WE show partiality?
You, yourself, have said that they never let YOU into their ‘inner circle’. Why is there an ‘inner circle’? Who gets into this ‘inner circle’ and how? What is the purpose of this ‘inner circle’? Does SF ever DO anything for anyone OUTSIDE their group? Or do they send all of their money to the brothers in Norway? And, if so, what do the ‘brothers’ in Norway do with this money? Are they using these resources to help others or for their own purposes?
Matt. 7:16-21 says, “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not every one who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.” This scripture implies not only words but also actions, deeds, behaviors, and lifestyles.
So far from what we’ve witnessed on here, the actions from some SF are threats, dishonesty, deceit, bitterness, anger, division, exclusivity, and instilling fear, and heartache to others. Are these the fruits of the SF? How do these actions line up with Galatians 5:17-26 that says, “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envyings, drunkenness, carousings, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control; against such things, there is no law.”
I’ll conclude by saying that there are probably good people in the SF group who do show fruits of the Spirit and probably are sincere in their Christian faith. I could say the same for some people in the Mormon Church; yet it is still a cult. And, although you don’t seem to think so, there are many people in ‘mainstream’ churches who are sincere and mature Christians. The Bible is full of scripture stating that God wants our hearts, minds, souls, and strength, to show others love, and to lead them to Him.
What has happened to this girl and her family due to her involvement with this particular group of SF is sad and unfortunate for her and her whole family. It appears this man and his family have taken advantage of a young, impressionable girl for their own gain. Galatians 5:17-26 is clear about how God feels about factions, yet that is what this group does, it separates. Isn’t that one of the many characteristics of a cult that has been defined on this blog?
Smith's friends I'm pretty sure view you all as "growling beasts" as they talk about http://www.brunstad.org/en/Edification/The-Fire-of-Pentecost.aspx?v=16
"the fire of penticost" article on www.brunstad.org
Like pretty sure they view you all as growling beast on the periphery that they can hear your growl and they are convinced they just need more penticostal fire inside and your growl will go away : ) - they just view me as a sister on the outskirts of the church from all I can gather? pry some them view me as a outright rebel : ) safe to say : )
I think though I'm much these days about humbling myself and judging myself big on "always abounding in the work of the lord" lately.
My apostolic christian aunt says she's fine w/me going to her church, she just worries about me not getting enough fellowship that she didn't mean to say I wasn't allowed to go to her church - that's good!
The smith's friend if they are at all serving the lord ------ oh boy I'm about to get in trouble w/all the groups concerned saying this ------ it's a inner work they are doing or thinking about doing entertaining the idea some : ). Brother of india talks to me much ------ smith's friends haven't sued me, they haven't lashed back at none you much lately ------- maybe they've humbled themselves?????
I agree'd w/post daniel struhbar smith's friend posted on his site (type in his name on google to find his site) said "who am I, that anyone should think anything of me, I look in the mirror and I see a creep" well pry didn't use those exact words that basic jist. Good to think humble sort of thoughts about oneself, if you say you are rich spiritually know you not you are poor and naked etc. I suspect even the richest of us on earth spiritually are in reality in a very sad state in a spiritual sense......god looks upon the humble, god's about that stuff, good to humble oneself - I think the grace of god happens in humility.
So I'm pretty sure the smith's friends view you all as growling animals, pry like hienna's? Ya I think hienna's or werewolfs : ) Aie ow ow ow in the full moon in the senora desert : )
I talk bad about churches to and I should knock it off, we shouldn't devour one another, not support when a church appears to be stealing people's jobs I don't think? But not be out to shut churches down, or send people to hell, make them pay or whatever. I'm not sold that the smith's friends are a cult, the shit of the entire body of christ ----- maybe? I'm not saying yae or nae on that one though. Think mainstream christianity has it's flaws to - mainstream christianity is tooo much focusing on the outer good works stuff Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" notice these people did "many WONDERFUL works" many of them and you can be sure many means a whole heaping slew, but jesus didn't know them!!!! THEY DIDN'T crucify their fleshes to their lusts and desires, there was no inner work going on in them, much more a outward show of "many good works" I greately suspect. I very much would say working on the inside of ones cup is the most important thing to do, so important, that you love not the earth or the things in it!!!!!! That there be a work going on in you!!!
I told my apostolic christian aunt today Jeremiah 48:10-11 "Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.
Moab hath been at ease from his youth, and he hath settled on his lees, and hath not been emptied from vessel to vessel, neither hath he gone into captivity: therefore his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed." The "keepeth back his sword from blood" speaks to me being made conformable to jesus's death a death to my self life, to the lusts of my flesh ---- real blood being drawn well make believe but you know, that I DIE. That I don't remain the same sister sheri, that I walk "in newness of life" (verse about that to in the bible) if I don't guess what I smell the same "his taste remained in him, and his scent is not changed" I tell my apostolic christian aunt that's the most horrible thing I could imagine happening to me, ending up when I'm dead the same stinky old sister sheri!!!!!!
I recommend loving the smith's friends, cause you all might need them someday ----- I know I do!
Christian blog, I think I understand your comments but I have to question the following.
“…mainstream christianity is tooo much focusing on the outer good works stuff…”
While there definitely are many people in mainstream Christianity who may not be mature in their faith, you seem to be overlooking the possibility that there are many who are. I believe that Satan works his way into all places, even churches (including SF churches). To infer that SF is immune to the workings of the devil is naïve.
And thank you for the link you referenced on the SF web site. This whole piece is a good example of SF teaching that promotes exclusiveness and separation (both cult behaviors).
“However, even now there is a core of disciples in whose hearts the fire of Pentecost is burning brightly, and Satan has no power over them. For this reason everyone should be quick to come to the center where the fire is hottest.”
This indicates that the core of disciples is the SF leadership and everyone else should run to SF in order to be protected from Satan. This is not biblical.
“Wickedness always presses in from the outside to the inside, whereas the good always goes from the inside to the outside.”
Here again is the idea that all goodness comes from inside (from SF) to the outside. All outsiders are “wicked”. I don’t know where that line of thinking came from but it is not biblical.
“Let us be on guard against any breach in fellowship with the saints, because then we are finished.”
This tells me that as a SF, I should only fellowship with other SF because the only safe place is within a SF fellowship. This promotes fear and separation…more cult behaviors. This is in direct contradiction to the Great Commission from Jesus to his disciples. He instructed them to go out and make disciples of all nations. He didn’t tell them to huddle together in the upper room for protection from outsiders. So my take on this is that their teaching is in direct conflict with that of Jesus.
This fear is evident in the local group. They have apparently instilled this fear in the girl towards all of her friends and family. So much so that she is afraid of them. Otherwise, what reason would she have to leave the freedom of a college dorm room and move into the home with this family and submit to the bondage that comes with fear? Preaching fear is not biblical either. 1Jn 4:18 “But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” So the fear that SF teaches is a form of punishment?
I always wondered if SF started out as a conventional Christian group, and just the recent generations of Norwegian brothers had gone off track. But the fact that this article was written back in 1938 tells me that they been off track from the beginning.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that they have zeal to guard themselves from sin. If they really were righteous and holy and sinless then great, but it’s obvious that they aren’t because causing dissention and breaking up families is not a righteous or holy act. Just because they get up and claim to be without sin doesn’t make it so. 1Jn 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” Don’t they claim to have “victory over sin”?
christian blog, it appears as though SF has spoken to you concerning legal action. Based on what? They have at least contacted you and tried to make you feel guilty for speaking your mind on this blog. This local group has threatened several people with law suits including Keith and this family. They have also threatened this family with physical violence. So…who is the growling beast? It seems that they are the ones making threats. What has anyone here done except to raise legitimate questions and compare their words and actions with the truth of scripture. If they have a problem with this and threaten you and others to keep you from speaking your mind, then they are attempting to control you and its just one more characteristic that defines what they are.
I was told by "elf asura" in private e-mail who definately is a full blown smith's friend, to watch everything I said on this site, that you all are all about taking the church down and that you all would use anything I said against me on a whim. But he wanted me to post up here, to say good things about the church. Smith's friends haven't ever tried to sue me or threatened to sue me, though it is something I to this day fear much, and I know I shouldn't fear these people but I do - they did work to instill fear in me and accomplished their mission at least some.
I told my aunt connie, that I needed to let go my anger towards the smith's friends and I think I finally have, we are to love our enemies, pray for them ----- have good thoughts for them. If they are a very wayward people's they need our prayer daily.
Somedays I do contiplate, what if they are the people in this bible verse......2 Corinthians 11:14-15 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." I have wondered pondered much w/myself what if the smith's friends know they are a cult or greately evily bent ascew? What if they know they are evil? What if they know all this and have transformed themselves into "ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" I have thought about that much even while in their church I was thinking about that. Sometime's some the stuff some them do, seems so evil to me, I wonder how could they be naive about that? Though "elf asura" assures me they are naive, that god will show them their faults someday he tells me and that they will change for the better.
I've read the smith's friends try to drum up money for brunstad from the super poor 3rd world countries on this anti the smith's friends site - he also said I took note that this is a very "deceived" state to be in ---- to be on purpose drumming up money from super poor people for brunstad and believing your doing good missionary work and doing much good and the will of god etc. That really stood out to me the word "deceived" that he used there. The bulk of them must not see any evil - the bulk of them must be "deceived"
I suspect some them aren't so "deceived" though and are just pure "evil" clean the minister's of satan just like talked about in bible "...Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness"
I have learned through my experiences w/the smith's friends that good isn't always good, what appears to be the light isn't always light! Though most the smith's friends I would classify as merely "deceived". It's a deceived thing to think it's a "great holy godly thing" to go to africa and the poorest of poor 3rd world countries and talk them into giving you their money for brunstad ------ to think you are doing good and the will of god in that, in my opinion is nothing but a deceived state to be in! That's what I read that they are panhandling money from poor africans and peoples and this is what they call "missionary work".
I was one service super pressured to give money, a brother clean said "if you don't give money the person beside you might give money and you'll loose out on that blessing" like a young brother said that at salem fellowship up like at the microphone. I did give $20 that night, they managed to talk it out of me!
They need money they in debt, they constantly need a lot of money. http://groups.google.com/group/smiths-venner/browse_thread/thread/c5f880b4459d9e4/97fa2658e48eb82b?lnk=gst&q=missionary+work#97fa2658e48eb82b
"the truth" said..... "It is not only Africa, but also with Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Russia
etc), that they collect money from poor people in the name of
"missionary work"."
That isn't the big thing about all this collecting money from poor people I read though there's been more talk about the smith's friends doing this online. Just wanted to show I ain't pulling this stuff out my butt : ) hahahahah
Smith's friends are nice to me to this day when i go to there church, some them are anyways. And hospitable.
Gas to spendy though, to spendy. I'm more into mainstream christianity right now, but hey might want to go to salem fellowship sometime? I'm a MASSIVE Joice Meyer fan!!!!!!! Man I watched joice meyer 2 nights ago while walking on my treadmill ----- 2 snaps and "you go girl" for joice meyer!!!!!!!! She was on the money!!!! She was preachin it!!! Extra you go girl and few more snaps!!!!! (man I look up to joice meyer ---- I like some the other women mainstream christian preachers to --- but joice meyer in particular I look up to ----- I'd actually like to be like joice meyer someday I'd consider that a fab fate : ) Joice meyer ROCKS!!!!!!! I think it's good there's women pastor's in christianity, that I have some womens pastors to look up to like I do. I can't relate to the men pastor's as much ------ I'm sorry guys I can't!!!!! Joice Meyers ROCKS!!!!!!! snap snap snap snap and snap you go girl!!!!!!
I think if the smith's friends are "the body of christ" as they say they are, they will come to me - god'll stick them in my path. As it is, they don't reply to my e-mails I believe it's the will of god that the smith's friends be my past, and not cause of any evil I did, not cause I'm some bad bad bad sister.
I believe some the smith's friends are clean "minister's of satan" maybe only 5, it takes a few of the workers of satan, to cause a group to be so "deceived" I believe ----- to make the evil look good. .2 Corinthians 11:14-15 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Isaiah 5
20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Such people exist on this earth, that would "justify the wicked for reward" that would call evil good and good evil. Elf asura, he get's free trips from the smith's friends to brunstad every year, so there's something in it for him.......my guess there's something in it for all the smith's friends to support each other.....some benefit or another......maybe just to be in the inner circle? I was told if I went along w/everything that was said at salem fellowship everything would be ok, by yelena ----- she goes along w/everything that is said by the smith's friends....along w/everything.
Brother fourie accused me of being to much on the side of good, for not being for churches making use of the "free market society" I don't view that as to much on the side of good. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness;" WOE WOE WOE to those people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good should be good, darkness should be darkness! Soliciting money from people that are very poor should always be - BAD.
heinna "growling animal" with a bit more yelp for the night : )
Christian blog: Thank you for your last post. You’ve brought up some good points. As stated before, there probably are some sincere members of SF. Perhaps, they are being deceived by the ones who you say are ‘evil’ (who are no more than satan’s tool), too. Harold stated recently that satan can work anytime, anywhere…even in our churches. He (satan) even tried to tempt Jesus (although unsuccessful). Because Jesus is God in the flesh, He has ‘victory over sin’…He didn’t give in to the temptations. We are NOT God, so even people who seem to be mature Christians can be tempted and deceived into believing a lie, even if we’re intelligent. That’s why Jesus tells us to ‘test the spirits’. It’s not our place to judge others, it’s God’s. However, when you see a ‘pattern’ (I believe that’s what the Bible refers to as ‘practicing’ sin) of a person/group repeating the same sin over and over, then you come to know this person by his/her behavior. Proverbs says, “Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.” If you’re not following Christ, then you’re following satan. It appears from things stated on here as if more than one incident of lying, stealing, threatening, deceiving, arrogance, instilling fear, and turning people against their own family members has taken place. So, these seem to be the ‘practice’ not a one time, give into a temptation, repent, turn from that particular sin and ‘mature’ in your Christ-likeness, and try to do better next time….always trying to live to glorify God. These practices seem to be what they ‘practice’ or live, which are not of God. As quoted in scripture, satan came to steal, kill, and destroy.
You said (in earlier posts) that you believe some of the SF are ‘ministers of satan’ and do some ‘evil’ things. You’ve listed a link to check out, but are there other things that you’ve ‘witnessed’ that they do that you are referring to as evil? You also said that we all may need them someday…you knew you did. Why would we ‘need’ them? What can they do for you or anyone else? All we really NEED is Christ. He is the ONLY way to get into heaven. Being a member of the SF or any other church will not get you there as Harold has already said.
Christian blog, what you are being told is typical cult jargon. This statement “I was told if I went along w/everything that was said at salem fellowship everything would be ok” just cracks me up. Let me translate this; If you do what we tell you and don’t ask any questions then we (the leadership) can get away with anything.
I know this is a quote from somebody, I just don’t know who. “One of the ways for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.” Don’t ask any questions; don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain. This is how cults maintain control over their members. As Sophie said, the Bible tells us to test the prophets according to the scriptures. 1Jn 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
I for one am not trying to “take down the church”. I really have no problem if you decide that SF is the place for you. I just believe that you should have ALL the information necessary to make your own informed decision. The problem with cults is that they don’t want you to have all the information. They just want you do know what they tell you. Information is the key to freedom and in order to make wise choices like this you need to have all the information from both sides. And this goes for ANY church or organization you are involved with. I as pointed out earlier, even mainstream Christian churches can have coercive discipleship programs that go too far and I am just as critical of those churches as well.
On www.brunstad.org article called, "is christ divided" I really super agree w/this article! (it's located at the "edification" link) I immensely agree w/where it says....talks about most christianity doesn't proclaim the gospel I need to directly quote this article cause I just can't say this stuff better..."Most religious assemblies receive Jesus as a sacrifice for sins, but not as Lord. (Col. 2:6-7). They proclaim that we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, but they do not proclaim that "Much more....we shall be saved by his life." Rom. 5:10." Sooooooooooooooooo true! There's a MASSIVE reason I might be thinking the smith's friends ARE THE body of christ on earth that'd be it! Their doctrine, everything it's all there in their doctrine, that whole body of christ something. They don't live it much, sure, some their leaders are extremely likely directly servants of satan and have deceived them all into thinking it's a great thing to solicite money for brunstad from poor poor people's in 3rd world countries it does look to be!
I have I believe reason more then anyone on earth to hate the smith's friends - I dont hate them but have reason to......I was shut out in the outer circle for 10+ years now only 1 returns my e-mails I'm banished. 7 them jumped me w/intent on doing me physical harm while rental cooking only 1 youth and she didn't jump at me so much rest were older elder sisters 40+ years old and man they wanted me dead and stopped in front my face ------ they lept towards me w/much the intenet on harming me. I believe they wanted me dead much, and only reason they didn't kill me is cause they'd get in trouble w/the church ---- or lay a hand on me, they knew they'd get in trouble.
One day rental cooking they knew I was having problems (I was nursing a child at the time, and was having leaky boob problems that day sometime's the bra nursing pads weren't enough), well it was obvious, they had me take off the apron and collect dirty dishes, telling me they didn't wear their fancy macleay christian retreat aprons out to collect dirty dishes, so in and out and in and out I went that way, w/this leaky boob what wet shirt just some but you know I was having a bad day, and live in vancouver so didn't have a change of clothes w/me I'm a dork, I'll admit it, and the nearest store is 15 minutes away from macleay christian retreat so I just could take off to the store to get another shirt! All the mainstream christians that were renting macleay christian retreat at the time, noticed my leaky shirt! They passed their plates to me (they didn't for the other 2 brother's also collecting plates) to make my job as fast and easy on me as possible. When I was done the smith's friends in the kitchen looked at me like I was moses and had just parted the ocean. uh, I wasn't feeling very special at that moment! That day was sucking for me! But it was cool to see the mainstream christians that were renting the churches love for me, it was much more then them just passing their plates my way, I could feel their love for me ----- they loved/love me. I didn't do anything though I swear I didn't do no great moses thing I'm hardly moses! like not!!!!! I'm a dork who should've brought a spare t-shirt w/me that day since I was nursing!
I dont think the smith's friends think I'm like human? Some them call me a sister, but how can I be a sister I'm in the "outer circle" and I know it! How can I really be a sister??????? I mean in the smith's friends minds. I battle that to this day, convincing myself I'm human, convincing myself I'm someone jesus loves and wants to save.
I try to not give into the lusts of the flesh ----- a animal wouldn't try to do that, a animal wouldn't consider to do that. I'm not no enemy of the cross of christ, I work hard to deny myself and take up my cross and follow jesus dialy.
There's 0 taking the smith's friends down, you all are trying for something that is impossible. I believe god is holding them up over their beliefs. You may be nicer people, but do you give into the lusts of the flesh??????? Where are you w/jesus??????? Philippians 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Thing I really hold onto, while in this looks to be eternal smith's friends exile, bible says god will graft the jews in extra strongly --- that's HIS promise to me! # Romans 11:24 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" I'm of jewish lineage, and am full out a christian jew of the "ruby/reubenstein" family (ruby being a abbreviation of reubenstein in my family ----- jack ruby the assinator of the assinator of JKF was my great uncle) "how much more shall these, which be the natural branches" those words are a great comfort to me. I have to make effort to heed god's word daily and I do to get this extra strong graft in, god will do it, he will graft me in extra strong whether I be in THE body of christ or not I much believe. God hasn't forgotten me I don't think, I think He thinks upon me in the day. When He visited me He told me "come out of her my people" with much love for me, much a desire for my salvation. Such a god didn't forget me! HE is a jealous god he longs for our hearts!!!!! Deuteronomy 4:24
"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Where it says god's a "consuming fire" speaks to me of god's zeal for our salvation! I super longed ever since god spoke to me - to come out the harlot fully, to give god my whole life, my whole heart, love him with all my mind, my might, my strength. Do everything as if unto the lord!
Who am I for god to even think upon me????? Yet there god was speaking to me, with such a heart for me, such a zeal for my salvation, such a care a concern for my soul! Jesus is the way the truth the life! Pretty sure there's a bible verse somewhere talking about nobody entering the kingdom of heaven cept through jesus, through like following him ----- he is THE Way the bible says. The way he went.....Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"
Having a good time watching Joyce meyer even though I don't have 100% belief wise in commone w/her : )
You all would do good to become smith's friends, they'll pry let you all in, they just have something against me! But god doesn't I don't think at all.....I think I'm in god's thoughts much.
Christian Blog
I not so sure the rest of us want
to become sv's. :> I am glad you could have the tangebile exp. of the love of God while you were ser-
ving the mainstreamers, remember,
the love for one another is a prime
indicator of the members ofthe body of christ. Yes?????? .
Sweetie, my intent here is not to
critisize SV. Rmeber tje whole
forgiveness thing, If I revert back to bitterness then I am putting
my self back under the law. This
is revelation I got while in the
(Harlott) All revelation is a function of the spirit. And He pretty much does what he wants, and
he is not (Thank God)concerned with
some of the things we allworry about. He is like clean way more
tollerant of a Harlott than clean
like the relegious elect. Remember
Jesus and the woman at the well??
The woman caught in adultry, Mary?
The list goes on. Sometimes we do
clean the inside ofthe cup, but then it is so easy to subtly believe we have no more need and
wow, how dangerous. SV and mainstreamers take heed.
What I seem to hear you say, is you
cant seem to make up your mind. REmember what James says about double mindedness. HOney you need
to make a decision and stick with it. Mainstream wont look like SV.
THere is zeal for God in the mainstream it manifestation is different. Ask God to show you.
I am praying God will help you decide which path to tajke and then
to be at peace with your decision
blessings
I believe the smith's friends for sure are the body of christ.....but I sincerelly don't believe they like jews at all.....on www.brunstad.org they have a article "Israel—60th anniversary! Congratulations!!" Gen. 12:3 are still valid. "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you: And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." They know they have to try to look to be supportive of the jews........my personal experiences, I'm pretty nearly always treated like a dog at salem fellowship, like their little jewish pet, they've kept me good and on the outside their church, and when I'm there pat on my head I'll get. Nice jewish doggy!
I don't think the smith's friends have blessed this jew, more a curse. I'd say it's a curse to be stuck out the body of christ, for 10+ years in the outer cirlce, and no that there is no hope for me ever getting in the inner circle ----- because I'm a jew! It's definately cause I'm a jew, I've been going super strong heeding god's word for a long time now. It has to be because I'm jewish!
They know I'm held in extra good heeding god's word, they know one their kids has less a chance then ------ so what do the body of christ do ------- ya push the jew girl away!!!!!!!! Get her gone!!!!
Don't reply to her e-mails!!!!!!!!!
Smith's friends at salem fellowship are selling lawn furniture now at their online non-public websites store.....few varieties of lawn furniture (not the sort of thing you'd expect to see in a churches online store) little bistro table and chairs, one those lounge sort of chairs etc. their prices weren't bad around $100-200. They also sell on their non-public store, macleay backpacks, watches, hats.
I got brand new revelation over god's word - somedays I think my eye's is open and they's only a bit cracked open. http://smithsfriendsinfosource.blogspot.com/
Matthew 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." I'm lock stalk and barrel convinced now, that iniquity will ABOUND in the last days not only outside of "the church" but IN the church!!!!!! IN IT! IN the body of christ! The very next verse, man it speaks to me.......that it's the very next verse, I think the very order of bible verses often is on purpose 13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." To ENDURE! Even when iniquity is abounding and the love of many is growing cold to ENDURE! I think for sure not just endure in taking up my cross and following jesus but ENDURE w/love for christians in general and the body of christ!
My love for THE church grew cold for a bit...But you know iniquity it is abounding in THE church it is the last days..........but those who endure unto the end the same shall be saved! ------- ridiculous lawn chair selling iniquity hahahahahahahahahahahahah
I hope you all love each other to, it more then on the narrow way one needs to endure, endure stick it out w/a church, have some love for some christians, don't let your love grow cold and walk away and leave christianity........he who endures unto the end the same shall be saved. If this the last days then iniquity going to happen in "the church" and that's just that, we need to love each other! I'm like lock stalk and barrel convinced of that. Even the ridiculous lawn chair stealing of us (I'm not buying the smith's friends are a cult ------ worst case they are the slime of the body of christ I recogn ------- some them real, some them legit) I tell my husband it's more so much more then about just xx church, not a religion church issue for me, moreso my faith, it's a different faith in mainstream christianity, there is a faith to contend for......Jude 1:3 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." I'm extremely sure there is just 1 faith, 1 baptism, Ephesians 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," Just 1 faith, I'm 100% about this, and it's not easy to obtain have to work to get it..."earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" But you know you all might be able to get it from watching lot's of episodes of Joyce Meyer ----- I think you could, Joyce has been on the extra money few services!
One you said a church can't save a person, I'd say definately particular people could save a person.....1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." There is for 100% soul saving power in hearing the right person - whoever that is ----- Joyce Meyer is a pretty good person to listen to I must say! If you ain't getting victory in your life ---- find another church!!!!!!!! If you are all bound to the lusts of the flesh and all bound up ----- FIND ANOTHER CHURCH! John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (I watch Joyce Meyer so much I'm starting to talk like her hahahah) There is for sure salvation happening power in hearing the right person or people's! We aren't meant to be trapped stuck giving into the lusts of the flesh being debtor's to our fleshes!!!!! Romans 8:12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh." We are to be "more then conqueror's in christ jesus" just like Joyce meyer has said many a time in front her conferences! For sure doing good works - it's so much better to be "bought w/a price" to not be no debtor to my flesh no more! To live for jesus!
I just don't like to be bound up, all bound to my flesh none!!!!! We are called to a "more then conquerors" in christ jesus sort of life!!!!! Romans 8:37 "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." A victorious in christ jesus life! ------ I'm very much saying what joyce meyer been saying ---- I'm a MEGA joyce Meyer fan.
I went to smith's friends church today near me....youth pastor gave me a "talk" he is apparently in aggriance w/you all that I need to make up my mind......why do I need to make up my mind exactly???????? With everything else in life isn't the motto to "don't put all your apples in one basket"? I'd only stick ALL my apples in one basket if I was 100,000,000,000% that that basket was the basket that is THE body of christ on earth a part of that ----- only then......when I'm sure......when I'm good and sure......I ain't hit that point yet!!!!!! Why can't it just be enough that I have love for the smith's friends, and love for the apostolic christians, and love for mainstream christianity/christians ---- why can't that be alright?????? I can't make up my mind right now cause I ain't sure I just can't, I feel you all is pressuring me and I like am like stressed out about it anyways!!!!!!!!
Anyways I told the youth pastor of the "smith's friends" near me......I ain't contending that "macleay solutions" ain't legal, my contention is I've heard from yelena when I pressed her about Macleay solutions asking her "isn't that stealing people's jobs" she told me it's a "free market society" it's the morality I have contention with.......and youth pastor tells me that he ain't in charge that there are people above him mysterious people above him calling the shots somewhere??????
There's no christian group that is standing out to me absolutely as the body of christ......every group I have a few doubts about......love them, ya love them across the board. Cant' I just be like this?????? If I don't know which is THE church I just don't know!!!!!
I'm glad you all can make up your minds, god apparently didn't give me that ability. It's not like picking food at a store, it is like a critical descision if a person does pick 1 certain church.......cause geez you could pick a dead church!!!!!! You could pick a church that isn't even a part of the body of christ!!!!!! It's a big deal, not a decision I think I need to rush into ---- I ain't going to make up my mind til I am sure 100,00000000000000000 percent sure. Who invests everything they have and are into something they are unsure about???????? You all do that?????? I think this picking a church for like ever and ever to go to is like a bunch of beloni anyways, didn't paul like travel to church to church to church??????? Did he have just 1?????????? I don't recall he did!!!!!!!!!! What if it's god's will I don't have that magic 1??????? Besides I won't pick til I'm sure, it's not some choice to make on a whim. Just adding to my stress trying to make me choose.
smith's friends can't sue me over be weary and having moral reservations about macleay solutions right????? (seemed to be to me, that the smith's friends youth pastor was trying to get me to say I thought macleay solutions wasn't legal, and I was like nope it's legal ok!!!!!! ------ I not sure he wasn't fishing for some way to sue me?????) He told me he sleeps well at night.....I sleep well at night to.......IF and it sure looks like it but I'll say IF the smith's friends are as yelena said making use of the "free market society" w/macleay solutions not only does that not giv w/my morals..........in my opinion that's a occultic sort of thing for a church to do. To me that's some sort of major red flag.....though I pressed him if there were secret hidden beliefs in the church and he looked me dead in the eye and said no.....so at least they don't have secret beliefs.
What turning of shadow does god have?????? James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." I stuck to my guns, when the youth pastor of the "smith's friends" had a "talk" with me......told him I believe there are acceptable means of fundraising...
rosegarden
catching chickens
pge
tearing down old buildings
selling wreaths door to door in winter
donating blood
selling girl scout cookies
washing cars
begging on the streets ok form of fundraising (maybe add some singing to your beg athon I recogn work out good - some show production of some sort)
collecting cans to recycle
"maybe large scale janitorial gigs? possibly -- cleaning gigs to massive for normal janitor teams to handle - like post massive events"
church garage sale
church carnival could pry generate money maybe?
Having a church play and charging admission - advertising it around town
church fundraising runs ----- my mainstream church has a run every year for their food pantry I ran in it last year!
The list even goes longer then that of god ordained, god supported means of which churches can raise funds.
I hope everything I have said is good and legal I work hard to make/keep it that way! My parents built it into me good to stand up for what I believe in : ) they did a particularly excellent job of that. I think it's good to always stand up for what you believe in. And I also believe it's good to heed god's word, always good, always good to be about "the good, and perfect will of god" Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
The smith's friends used to quote this verse Romans 8:31 "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" I told the youth pastor I believe there's buisiness his church could do to entirelly get rid of all their enemies Romans 8:31 "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Told me there has always been enemies of the church and rather appeared to accept that fate as some unchanable thing.
I ain't about spreading lies or slandering the smith's friends this is alllllllllll alllllllllllllll about macleay solutions not jiving w/my morals......standing up for what I believe in.
To ask questions about a church is a good thing, I think I'm going about some good buisiness, bible says "seek and ye shall find" the truth of which church or churches is THE body of christ it's there, there somewhere. : )
The smith's friends want me to shut up a lot : )
the only really "lie" the youth pastor confronted me on (he mentioned that I had been spreading slews of lies about the church online ------ my reply to that was that I only spoke of my own experiences, and if I spoke of something someone else said on internet I referenced them made mention that it was something someone else said) He now telling me there isn't a inner and outer cirlce.....youth pastor telling me there's no inner and outer circle in the "smith's friends" that it's a thing of your heart in your heart ------- as I've been trying to say it is a thing of the heart. ----- that's what the youth pastor of the "smith's friends" is trying to tell me anyways......but I tell you all one sunday I vividly remember Heather the daughter of the pastor's son, get up and say she was going to like do whatever she could "and get in the inner circle" in my opinion she mentioned it as some special little clique in the church. It came off that way to me!!!!........and again I reference my own 10+ years experience w/the smith's friends most that time I was shut out, rather in isolation ----- I surely felt shuned, not so many people talked to me over those 10+ years......til after I started rental cooking only reason I rental cooked is sister got up and said people would leave the prophets of the church told her that didn't help out in the church ---- and I was deserperate to do whatever to get in the inner circle ----- and after I rental cooked they came up and talked to me. The inner circle special clique seems to be dissolved away now, but I still think it once existed......youth pastor trying to tell me it never existed......I not so sure about that?
Last night they were talking about people in 1900's leaving the church cause they didn't want to pay 30 kroner's or whatever? They are doubling their brunstad pillar's $50 a month is the usual monthly pillar predetermined amount. Then they suggested the amount people should give for offering for some the upcoming conferences......to be able to pay down the brunstad debt to be able to then pay down salem fellowhip's debt solely.....their suggested amounts was like $200 per person at some conference coming up and like $300 for another conference per person. Then the activity club costs $100 a month they said it really costs $100 a month (kids club) that the people that didn't pay they going to less I read the projector wrong looks to be charge a whole $400 penality fee on them. Then the testimonies consisted of lot's of brother's and sister's saying they were going to pay this money ---- cause they are so thankful for the church, etc. etc. (I took note that many them wanted the church to know they were going to pay this money - I'm a extremely observational person like that : ) But the smith's friends were very nice to me very warm, very nice, some them were my utter sworn to all hell enemies and to my surprise they came up and talked to me and were very nice ------ one in particular was shocking, not only that she would actually talk to me but how sincere she was......cause that lady was quite a enemy of mine before!!!!!!!!! Big push in their church to "work" and I like that I agree w/that, I told a sister the pharisee's bible says somewhere refuse to life a "pinky" that's a hallmark thing of a pharisee they refuse and don't work at all. So having a strong work ethic is good! And definately to have a strong work ethic to be along in all our local churches is good! (with directing traffic, helping wash cars, etc. etc.) But there amounts for conferences was just "suggested" : ) It was their finances meeting last night or one their finances meetings I should say, informative stuff, they are paying off their brunstad debt it's about entirelly paid off.....it's impressive that they've raised that much money!........see that isn't all smack me saying about the church or "lies" I ain't all negative. The youth pastor giving me a "talk" like he did just a bad idea on his part! I knew he was about to give me a talk, he mentioned he was going to, and ushered me off to a more private room. I stood my ground I'm glad I did!!!
From my experience there, they were very big on "inner court" and "outer court".
Is that what you mean? Inner court by their lunatic standards is those who can sit on the front row with Kare Smith and the rest of his cronies.
christian blog:
I don't know any other way of saying this, so here goes: I think what you are experiencing re: SF is simply their way of saying "we don't want you in our club." I know they monitor what is said here and on other blogs and most likely, the word has gotten around, at least to the group in your area.
As I've stated before, our local SF group can claim that they believe in the "Great Commission" (Matt 28:19-20) and that they want to "be a light to those whom God has called to be disciples of Jesus Christ," but their actions prove otherwise. Sounds like some of the same thing is going on in your area.
I don't understand the attraction you have for being accepted by SF, but I think, given the scenario you've described here, I'd move on. There are plenty of real, Bible teaching churches out there were you can grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no perfect church on THIS earth. In my own situation, I do not agree 100% with everything that is spoken from the pulpit, but the disagreement(s) I have are not tied to salvation type issues. Our church teaches and preaches salvation by faith alone, through Christ alone. That is the Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4) and that is the most important thing. Beyond that, most everything else is up to interpretation, i.e. when and how many times we should take communion, elders, deacons, etc.
Don't let this group occupy one more moment of your time. Open your Bible, pray, and seek God's will –and ask Him to point you to a church that can encourage you and teach you.
NOW…re: your infatuation with Joyce Meyer. To be brutally blunt here, she is part of the "Word Faith" movement (along with the likes of Joel Osteen, Paula White and Benny Hinn) and should be avoided like the plague. She and others prey upon their followers to send money and buy their books in order for THEM to maintain opulent lifestyles. Note the following from the St. Louis Dispatch:
The ministry's board of trustees, which is headed by Joyce Meyer, agreed to pay her a $900,000 annual salary in 2002 and 2003. The board agreed to give her husband, Dave Meyer, the board's vice president, an annual salary of $450,000 in each of those same two years. The board agreed to provide the couple with free personal use of a corporate jet and luxury cars, a $2 million home where all bills are paid by the ministry and a separate $50,000-a-year housing allowance. The ministry paid $1.475 million to buy three houses for the three Meyer children. The board authorized Joyce and Dave Meyer to control a $790,000 fund to be used at their discretion for bonuses to "executive management."
There are plenty of good, Bible preachers/teachers out there…Joyce Meyer ISN'T one of them. She is a fast-talking huckster that twists Scripture to sell her ministry to unsuspecting victims.
Joyce Meyer teaches that Jesus went to hell and suffered during the three days his body was in the tomb—an unscriptural teaching. She also teaches that once she became a Christian, she QUIT sinning (that doesn't match 1 John 1:8-10). Her position as a teacher/preacher violates Scipture/Apostle Paul's condemnation of women teaching men violates 1 Tim 2:12…just to name a few of her heretical teachings.
Flee from the likes of Joyce Meyer; find yourself a good Bible church; forget about SF and allow God to bless you and your family in ways you have never imagined.
I really believe the smith friends once had a inner and outer circle, guess it's like space aliens not everyone believes in space aliens but for those us that do it'd be hard to convince us that there aren't space aliens. In my opinion I was shut out of the "inner circle" the inner clique I believe once existed.....though it is gone now. I super believe I wasn't allowed to be a part of the "cool kids club" of the church like shut out of like the extra good fellowship, like the extra edifying fellowship, I believe existed and was reserved for the "cool kids club" that smith's friends would be hard pressed to convince me never existed. That isn't my spreading lies or smack or slander --- it's different if it's stuff I lock stalk and barrel believe like this - I believe the youth pastor was trying hard to label me as some cheating lieing theif...I ain't a cheatin lieing theif.......maybe I believe in unicorns : )........but I ain't a cheatin lieing theif!
Youth pastor said I should leave this site, that I should watch what I say be very fearful of god - not bad advice always good to fear god. And did quite a bit mentioned idea of me looking to find a church that meets my needs.
Most salem fellowship was doing amazingly good last night, much sincere love for me! They were being extremely nice to me -- all cept the youth pastor. Though probably someone obviously ordered him to "talk" to me. Nobody ordered him to be mean to me, I think that was all his own thing --- lot's of treating me as if I were a criminal.
I haven't always had the love for "the church" that I should have, I haven't always said everything 100% like I should have but as I tell him nobody at salem fellowship replies to my e-mails anymore, I've extremely shut out I get frustrated, for this last work party I tried to e-mail a sister 2 times for info on it, and then e-mailed another brother trying to get him to e-mail her and talk her into giving me info......I didn't get info had to just show up.....it's frustrating when I can't even get simple questions answered anymore. James 3:17
"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." "easy to be intreated" FULL OF MERCY and good fruits WITHOUT PARTIALITY, and without hypocrisy. I think the smith's friends might be full of mercy, but not easy to be intreated not for me!!!!!!! Not replying to my e-mails is not "easy to be intreated" It's good to be full of mercy full of it, not just some, full of it, really reply to my e-mails smith's friends......and be easy to be intreated!
The bible says to......Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" I'm seriously considering full out fleeing the smith's friends....youth pastor asked me for "elf asura's" name and locale, asked me if anyone in the church was talking to me and I said ya "elf asura" so he wanted where he lived what his place was in the church and everything, and he extremely appears to have gotten ahold of "elf asura" "elf asura" when I told him I'm thinking about fleeing the church and not sure my life isn't in imediate danger --- I worked to love my enemies and it's good to do that but I believe my life in in danger right now ----- brother avy tells me I'm imagining things, but I told him the youth pastor wants me to believe the smith's friends are my friends, but then how come none them reply to my e-mails then?????? ------ then brother avy went clean offline and had 0 reply for that! (so is that me imagining things to?)
Youth pastor looks to be turned the 1 friend I had left in the church against me! (I have much reason to fear for my life to I really do right now)
I agree with what Keith has said regarding Joyce Myer and similar movements.
I actually find them to have similaries to the way Smith's friends operate. Preying on people's emotions. This is exactly their modus operandi.
The reason why Christianblog is going through such a hard time now is because of SF's preaching. You cannot enter the kingdom of heaven WITHOUT being a member of Smith's Friends. It's as simple as that. Their proclamation that they are the one and only true church on earth whilst all other churches are preaching falsifications, lies and doing the work of the devil.
Just think what happens to people when this type of preaching is hammered into year after year...
It's not only that aspect but that you must fear/respect/love the "church leadership" or it will go very wrong with you (earthly suffering is the threat).
Kare Smith and other so called "leading brothers" are viewed as God's prophets on earth and are infalliable (they have reached a state of perfection).
These are pure hallmarks of cultism. Christianblog you must have nothing to do with these people; burn all your bridges and as Keith said find another bible based church.
When I left I burnt all my bridges and ignored any of their advancements (including veiled threats). You must also do the same or you will never find inner peace. Part of the process of finding inner peace is to find another church where you can have fellowship with others and glorify Christ (not any leader, certainly not Kare Smith).
Chrstianblog I'm not surprised that you're in a state of fear; because Smith Friend's can certainly be ruthless to those who critique them, they do not even understand the basics of Christianity. It's about power, wealth and status for them (us against the world).
Keith: Great points!!
Truth: Thanks for contributing; you’ve made some very good points as well. Perhaps you stated some of the very reasons that this family is so devastated by the girl’s involvement with this group. It doesn’t sound from others posting as if THEY (her family) want to ‘control’ her as Elf seems to think. Veiled threats can cause fear which creates an unhealthy dependence on others rather than independence as obviously she’d known before. No one wants to see someone they love living in fear, threatened, intimidated, and cut off from all former relationships. That’s not the way of Christ. Besides all that, even if this man didn’t claim to be a Christian, aren’t school teachers supposed to be bringing out the BEST in students, helping them to succeed and achieve, and be independent. How is instilling fear and intimidation helping her to become the person God created her to be? If you ask me, he’s fortunate to still have a job.
Christian blog: It appeared for a while that you were undecided about several things. But, now it sounds as if things are beginning to be revealed to you about the likes of this group. I hope you’ll see them for what they truly are.
When scripture is taken out of context, twisted, and mishandled, it can do a lot of damage. It’s like a car. A car can be used for good to transport people or things from place to place without as much time or effort as walking. But, cars can also be detrimental if used incorrectly by someone who doesn’t know how to correctly drive one. Does that mean we should get rid of all cars? No, not necessarily. But, we do need proper training in order to handle it correctly. It can be very destructive even deadly if it used by someone who doesn’t have proper training and knows how to handle one correctly. Joyce Meyer is only one of MANY examples. SF seems to be proud of the fact that THEY use ‘uneducated’ people rather than people who’ve studied the history of the Bible, Greek and Hebrew (the original languages of the Bible), and the context in which passages were written. In that case, there is a lot of room for misuse and misinterpretations, which can be destructive.
When we take scripture out of context, we can use scripture to defend almost any behavior, even behavior that is ungodly. That is why we must read the WHOLE Bible and take it in its entirety. Otherwise, we can take scripture, twist it, or put a new meaning on it, for our own gain or purposes. Here’s one example, “Wives, submit!”(Eph.5:22) That’s a favorite passage, I’m sure for a controlling type husband. He could use this verse to force his wife into whatever he wanted her to do by saying something like, “It’s in the Bible, you must submit to me.” But this scripture doesn’t override every other scripture in the Bible. It does not void out, “Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church…” (Eph.5:25) It does not void out that “all things should be done in love, nothing should be done in selfishness.” There are many scriptures that must be violated in order for this ‘submit’ scripture to be a pivotal point in a marriage. Yet, many husbands may use it in order to get what he wants from his wife.
Likewise, there are many scriptures that SF could use to back up their behavior, like, “If God is for us, who can be against us?” They can state that the ‘us’ in that verse is directly referring to them, the SF group as a whole. It isn’t. But couldn’t any of us say the same thing about that same passage? What it refers to is anyone who is a true follower, worshipper, believer in Christ Jesus. He knows who they are, because He knows all things. He knows our heart. Not all believers (Christians) are members of the same group. THE BODY OF CHRIST is the people who wholeheartedly believe in and acknowledge (confess) that Jesus is THE Only Son of God and THE Only Way to get into heaven. The Bible has made that very clear. There are many scriptures to back that up. One would have to ‘override’ a lot of scripture to say otherwise. Some of THE Body of Christ is in many different congregations worldwide. When a group believes and teaches that they are the chosen body of Christ, and they are the only ones going to heaven, they are displaying one of the key markings of a cult. Jim Jones and David Koresh both said the same thing about their group. So do the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. And why even say such a thing? It is another way to control.
You will NEVER find the ‘perfect church’ here on this earth. Why? Because EVERY group of people is made up of sinners, imperfect people; we live in a fallen world. Jesus was the ONLY person who will ever walk the face of the entire earth who was, is, or ever will be perfect, because He was God in the flesh. It is written all over scripture. I do not know of a group of believers that is perfect. They are all made up of sinners. However, we must acknowledge that we are all sinners and that we need Christ. If Christ is really manifested in the life of a believer, then you will begin to witness ‘good fruit’ in their life….because they will become more and more like Him. What is He like? The Bible says He is an EXACT representation of God. He tells the truth, He loves others unconditionally, He honors people, heals people, respects people (all people). He is gentle, compassionate, forgiving. He reconciles people. He doesn’t lead others away from God, but rather to Him. He wants what is best for ALL people. But, He is a just God and will not allow sins to go unpunished. But, when people repent, He is a loving, compassionate, forgiving God. If we really have Christ living in our hearts, the ‘fruit’ or behavior we will see MOST of the time will be more like Him. Will we still occasionally sin? Yes, because we have a sin nature. So, in looking for a group of worshippers, look for a healthy BODY. That body, however, will still have blemishes in the form of sin. But, do you see mission work, compassion, humility, love, forgiveness, care for others, (even outsiders)? When you look for a Body of believers, don’t expect to find one that is perfect. Just like our human bodies have blemishes or scars on them, so does the body of believers. Why? Because it is made up of imperfect people…you and me…sinners. Don’t look for one that is perfect, (you’ll be sorely disappointed because you won’t find one). Rather, look for one that teaches truth and acknowledges that the people in it are sinners and in need of a perfect, Holy, Savior and one that loves others.
Another thing you may want to look for when looking for a body of believers to worship with is what the LEADERS’ LIFESTYLES are like. Do they live a life of superiority, arrogance, demeaning toward others, hypocrisy, deceitfulness, lies, threatening people? Or, do they instead LIVE A LIFESTYLE of compassion, love, mercy, forgiveness, truthfulness, humility, helping others who are less fortunate than they are? If the LEADERS are living immoral lifestyles, a healthy congregation won’t allow them to stay and for that to go on. You will see people in the congregation to do things they shouldn’t, but we can only be held accountable for our own actions, not that of everyone in our group. However, when we see a leader doing immoral things and we don’t hold him/her accountable, that again shows what the group stands for.
On July 18, Jarsmom said it well, “Remember the love for one another is a prime indicator of the members of the body of Christ.” And, that ‘one another’ doesn’t mean only people inside of that particular group. It means ANYONE who is a human being.
One more thing: You mentioned that the youth minister said that the church will always have its enemies. The Bible says that Christians will be persecuted for their faith. That is because there will be people who don’t agree with what God stands for, or obey what the Bible teaches...moral absolutes about things such as stealing, lying, pride, dishonesty, deceit, homosexuality, abortion , and murder. Those are generally reasons why Christians are persecuted. The persecution is by others who don’t want to live by God’s moral absolutes. Why would the SF have enemies? Is it because they are being persecuted for living such a righteous, moral lifestyle indicative of being the body of Christ? Or is it rather because their teachings and practices are so anti-Christian, yet they claim to be THE Christian Church?
The Bible says to speak EVERYTHING in truth and admonish one another in love (1Cor 4:14, Rom 15:14, 1Thes 5:14, 2Thes 3:15). Truthfully, what has been described here by many people is a group who threatens, lie, separate, instill fear, deceive, call names, and try to intimidate others. Do any of these behaviors describe Jesus? NO!!! I’ve never read in any Bible where Jesus did any of these things or believed in them. These behaviors are not only morally and ethically wrong, they are very clearly scripturally wrong. So, if this group is really a Bible-based, Christ-centered, group, then their behavior would line up more with Jesus.
You also stated that the youth minister wanted to know who Elf is. I was wondering the same thing. I’ve been reading back over this blog and have once again noticed that he really doesn’t use scripture to back up his beliefs, it’s more of what HE thinks rather than what God ordains or tells us as Christ’s followers to do.
It is still curious why this man had to move the girl into his home. How does that have anything to do with a ‘legitimate church’? Doesn’t that raise all kinds of ‘red flags’?
Excellent post Sophie. If only more people could have the same mindset.
I can freely admit that for a long time I didn't. I was taken up in the propaganda that the group preaches (us vs everyone else). I used to despise every other Christian who wasn't part of Smith's friends. I used to despise them because the leaders kept preaching to us how they were all doing the work of the "anti christ".
This is what happens the longer you remain in this group... the leaders will repeat the same propaganda over and over again until you believe it. That's also the effects of the isolationalism that Smith's friends practice.
Meanwhile.... Kare Smith and the rest of the leaders try to hit the members up for as much cash as possible utilising many different "methods". They say that everyone must take loans and give to the cult so they can complete building "brunstad" which is the "Only heavenly place on earth".
Although what the leader of this group is doing and has done is wrong, people like him are actually to be pitied. This kind of leader and the groups they control use praise, fear, and/or other methods to control and manipulate others. Generally speaking, leaders in these types of groups are narcissistic, insecure and fearful people themselves. They fear that if their members have any real free time away from them for very long, they will choose to do things that don’t always involve them. Insecure people feel the need to dominate others’ free time with work, or other activities but usually within the confines of the group or its’ members. They allow them no real freedom to enjoy spending any quality time with anyone outside the group or having hobbies. The Bible says, “Know the truth and the truth will set you free.” There is freedom in Christ. In Him, we have the freedom to be whoever He created us to be; we need not be always with the same people, doing the same things. Actually, the Bible calls us to go out and make disciples of all nations. So, how are we going to do that if we don’t spend time with others? If those around us, friends, co-workers, husbands, church members, etc, were really secure, they would allow others the freedom to have other friends and interests outside of the group. But, insecure people can’t do that. These types of groups don’t necessarily lock up their members physically, but mentally they do. That is the way of insecure, fearful people. I should know. I lived with a person like this for years.
TheTruth: Thanks for you inputs. It is actually very interesting that they also isolate and separate within the group itself using the “inner court” and “outer court” concepts. Even though Christian Blog uses “inner circle” and “outer circle”, the principle is obviously the same.
Keith: Remember the movie “All the Presidents Men” where the character Deep Throat says to Bob Woodward: “Follow the money”. That’s what all this reminds me of.
TheTruth: When you were in the group, who handled the money you donated. Was there any accountability? Was it a registered charitable organization where you received a written contribution report for tax purposes?
You apparently were in this organization for some time; do you know the leader of this group here in Owasso?
Does any know what happened to
christian blog, has she decided to stay with sf or is she just in hiding
Harold: These days--regardless of the situation--it seems it's ALWAYS about the money. I guess that's why Jesus had so much to say about it, i.e. "can't serve God and money," etc. People will do/justify some "squirrely" (sp?) things for a dollar.
Jarsmom: I may have offended Christian Blog with my comments re: Joyce Meyer. I also noticed the silence. I hope not; I really would like to see her find a good Bible church where she is accepted and where she can move on with her life.
this is "christian blog" : ) I just changed my blog's name : ) Just got done reading the last few posts on this site and they were really good!
So different for me in mainstream christianity the whole experience is different -- better in some ways, just different. In mainstream christianity I'm not a big fancy vocation - I'm just a sunday school teacher.
Glad I am a sunday school teacher I need that I need to feel useful. I don't yet identify myself as a joe smoe across the street "christian" yet......but I've definately made my descision, have to look more then just at what a people believe, but look at their fruit really look, really really look, like brother said on this blog not to look for perfection - look for the fruit should be lots of love patience kindness, goodness, goodness I can get a real taste and feel for. (and regardless if I am your enemy or not!)
I have weighed the fruit and thought long and hard about it - about which is the more fruitful group. One the older sister last visit I made to the smith's friends had a girl follow me around, and then a older brother walked w/me when I decided I was going to the other end of the church cause looked to be there wasn't anything left for me to do besides vacuum the entranceway at the front end of macleay christian retreat, I felt I was being treated like a criminal, the youth pastor also was treating me in my estimation like I was a criminal. I can just walk into a mainstream christian church! I ain't treated like a criminal in mainstream christianity! I'm welcomed much, people are happy to see me! (I don't think I'm deserving of all that nice treatment ---- but I do deserve respect and I don't feel I'm getting that at all from the "smith's friends" or not much)
1 Corinthians 13
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Like "love" right, real real real love............"endureth all things" if the smith's friends have THAT love, they should just endure me full out!
And love "is not easily provoked" and I wasn't.....I sat and watched brother's build massive ships at church on the sattelight tv projector for what looked to be "fundraising" sat and watched brother's at church on the sattelight tv projector build many fancy new homes for what looked to be "fundraising" and I wasn't provoked then......nope........macleay solutions sent me off the edge!!!!!!
Love is hopeful for each other "hopeth all things" love is hopeful!!!!
I made my descision anways that both you all and youth pastor of smith's friends was so hell vent for me to make, and it is for mainstream christianity!
There's another thing....in the past one the sister's got up and said "the prophets have spoken and said that those who don't work will leave the church so I will work"....I super believe they believe they need to constantly work be extra along w/rental cooking or pge or whatever to stay in the church like that stuffs is mandatory to some extent or another or they will leave, god will somehow take them away from THE body of christ and they will go to hell (that's what I believe they believe)!
When I got to the smith's friends church few weeks ago to "love my enemies and do good to them" on their clean the church day....there was work to do when I got there!!!! There were brother's cleaning windows and I could tell many windows still needed to be cleaned and there were chairs to be put under the tables (good 50-100 chairs I knew needed to be put under those tables) and it sooooo seemed to me when I walked in the room there was a franticness in the air the kids appeared to be all the sudden cleaning their windows quicker ---- as in to not let me steal any of their salvations ---- and I asked if I could put chairs under the tables cause I drove all that way to work to do good to my enemies at the very least! And he told me no! All they gave me to do was wipe a bit of dust off some windows and vacuum the entry way which was like what a 4x15foot space not big ---- THAT IT, that's all they gave me to do!!!!!!
I pry won't post again for awhile I hope never again, it's my stupid fault for being bored w/nothing to do yesterday hot in 80 degree 90 degree weather yesterday -- my house we have 2 little air cooler boxes and they just don't cool down the house much! Like everything I say smith's friends just chalk up to more "aha" that's why sheri is the villian of the earth!!!!! The youth pastor called me a lieing cheating like piece of shit ---- I'm not even exaggerating he didn't say the word shit but nearly so it was implied it was in his tone of voice to me, he was calling me a piece of shit ------ that's how most the smith's friends I believe view me as a absolute piece of shit! And the ones of them that just full out hate me ----- they were all smiling much at me last time I went to salem fellowship they are extremely happy I ain't in "the church" anymore - (they believing now I'm going to hell cause I'm not in the church anymore and cause I said stuff against the church I'm sure is more reason they are sure I'm heading straight to hell I believe they are super happy about this)
Pray I never come to this site again, they are a sue happy very sue happy bunch the smith's friends so I need to talk less - I still fear for my life smith's friends know where I live. (youth pastor was very mad when he called me a slandering lieing piece of shit ---- I believe he wants to murder me ---- I've given the smith's friends many reasons to want to murder me that I didn't shut up and just let "macleay solutions" happen but said hey wait this don't look right?) Youth pastor of smith's friends church goes to this site all the time he likely will read this very post (he told me he does and the info he told me matched up w/what's been talked about on this site) he said he didn't go to my blog though.......I find that hard to believe if I'm that big galatic of a enemy of the church seems to be that'd warrant keeping a eye on my blog to ------ they sure had people escorting me around at the church this last visit.......should be some consisitency across the board there.
Also could use prayer that dragon boat racing goes well this weekend, I'm leery worried about this weekend everone on my team hangs out w/each other all the time - I'm super the outsider. (we are boating in canada for few days this weekend) I don't know if anybody will hang out with me, I might be all alone in canada. Pray that I find something to do anyways, that I don't loose my mind from doing crosswords for hours and reading and video games for days between boat races for lack of anybody to hang out with : (
Giving it to God: Thanks for posting. It was good to hear from you again, as your last post and your absence was a little concerning. Although, I don’t believe that someone from the SF would actually do physical harm to you. After all, if someone did harm you, don’t you think there is enough evidence on this blog alone to prove someone’s guilt? Surely they are smarter than that and besides, aren’t they supposed to be Christians? Christ wouldn’t do harm to others; actually He would do the opposite of that. So, if the SF group really is Christian, why would they harm you?
I have some more questions for you. First, what is rental cooking? What is a “pillar”? Who predetermines that amount? This dragon boat racing that you’re doing, is it part of the Smith’s Friends or is it with other groups of people?
Also, you said, “youth pastor was very mad when he called me a slandering lieiing piece of shit.” Interesting!!!! HAVE you slandered them? One definition of slander is: the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another’s reputation. Another definition is: a false and defamatory statement about a person. So, is what you’ve said about them the truth or is it a lie? In order to slander, you must be lying. If you’re just stating the facts (the truth), then it is NOT slander. If they don’t like what is being said about them, then perhaps they shouldn’t actually be doing what you’re saying they’re doing. If he (this youth minister) is actually threatening you, he’s doing that just to shut you up, to scare you into submission. Again, how is that Christlike? That is just bullying.
It’s interesting that this behavior seems to line up with what is being said that goes on elsewhere in these SF groups. They do not want those outside of the group to try to understand, have an opinion, or ask questions. No critical thinking!
Have fun this weekend with your dragon boat racing. It sounds like a lot of fun!
sorry for the late reply. I am actually from from the state of NewYork, and I know no one from Tulsa. I do, however know people from New Mexico, they moved there from my state though. I know people from all over the USA, mostly north America and some people in western Europe. I googled this because my father was saying something about it our church being called a cult. I now have a question for you. Why are you so quick to judge our church? Looking about the little, and some inaccurate information you have, I am surprised that a "religious" man such as yourself would be so quick to judge us, because our methods are somewhat different and perhaps wrong according to you. Jesus would never be so quick to judge. It clearly states in the bible that we are to be conformed to the image of his son. that would mean that we do not judge anyone but ourselves. (keep in mind that I'm only a young person, so i may be a bit off in some areas.) to understand our church better, you may go to the Brunstad website, www.brunstad.org
please try to consider this, and check out the site. our time on earth shall soon be over!
Mali:
Thank you for stopping by. This post began with a simple question: Is this a cult? The conversation took off from there.
I don't ask the question simply because you--or any other church--may do things differently. I attend a Southern Baptist church. I'm certain we don't "do church" the same as someone from an Assembly of God church or a Church of Christ congregation. My main concern is with the local SF congregation. From what I can tell by the comments here and private emails I've received from other SF "members", our local group appears to operate differently than the majority. If you have read the enormous number of posts here, you'll see that one of the main concerns we've expressed here--actually the main reason for the original post--relates to one particular girl that was recruited by the group. She was ultimately moved into the leader's home and recently married the man's son. There have been other concerns in regard to the seclusion of the girl and her abandonment of her family early on. I know the girl and her family personally, so I know her actions were/are out of character. She was greatly influenced (coerced) by the local leader--much of that influence coming during a period of time she was a student in one of his classes at the local high school.
The local group claims to be engaged in "be[ing] a light to those whom God has called to be disciples of Jesus Christ," (quoted from the Brunstad website), yet their actions appear to be limited to only those THEY select for inclusion. Kinda puts a limit on Jesus' command to go into "all the world" don't you think?
As far as "judging," the Bible, even Christ himself tells us to observe/discern the actions/words of others--make sure they line up with Scripture. "By their fruit you will know them" (Mt 7:16) I think you are reading/understanding the term "judge" out of context.
I have visted the Brunstad site, as well as other SF related sites. We just going to have to disagree on this one.
The major concern here is the "cult-like" control exhibited in the local group, unlike what we have seen or heard from other groups. Even some of the comments here by current and/or former SF members express some of these same concerns.
Mali, I really do appreciate your comments and hope you will continue in your search for The Truth.
I have found the truth.I believe with all my heart that a life with god i possible and I know this church is right for me. nothing ca change my mind. as for choosing certain people, that is completely incorrect. there are thousands of young people all around the world that have chosen to spread the word of god. They tell everyone. It has become very obvious to everyone that the end is nearing. The church's main goal is to spread the word off god to every ear that hers it. we are trying to have people visit the websites and such. i'm only a very young person, so i know very little, and I myself have never been to brunstad, but I have seen the transitions and believe with all my heart, that brunstad is the best place in the world. there is no limit on our gospel spreading, and it doesn't matter who the person is. we are open minded people and have a great love for one another. I understand that the girl has had little contact with her family. it says in the bible that one must leave all worldly things and influences behind at any cost. that means if her family's a bad influence to her, then she must leave them behind and follow the path that god has planned for her. it is simply the only way she can wholly to god, to break away. people in school call my family amish and things like that because of the way we are, and what we believe. we believe that we must become perfect, just like his son, and that is our goal. I will not change my mind about this life, and I have a strong faith that in the end, he will say, "Well done good and faithful servant!
I have found the truth.I believe with all my heart that a life with god i possible and I know this church is right for me. nothing ca change my mind. as for choosing certain people, that is completely incorrect. there are thousands of young people all around the world that have chosen to spread the word of god. They tell everyone. It has become very obvious to everyone that the end is nearing. The church's main goal is to spread the word off god to every ear that hers it. we are trying to have people visit the websites and such. i'm only a very young person, so i know very little, and I myself have never been to brunstad, but I have seen the transitions and believe with all my heart, that brunstad is the best place in the world. there is no limit on our gospel spreading, and it doesn't matter who the person is. we are open minded people and have a great love for one another. I understand that the girl has had little contact with her family. it says in the bible that one must leave all worldly things and influences behind at any cost. that means if her family's a bad influence to her, then she must leave them behind and follow the path that god has planned for her. it is simply the only way she can wholly to god, to break away. people in school call my family amish and things like that because of the way we are, and what we believe. we believe that we must become perfect, just like his son, and that is our goal. I will not change my mind about this life, and I have a strong faith that in the end, he will say, "Well done good and faithful servant!
Mali: You stated "...if her family's a bad influence to her." Hardly the case here. The girl comes from a devout Christian family that is actively involved in a local congregation. Her mother teaches at a Christian school. As long as I've known them, they have been Godly witnesses for Jesus Christ. That doesn't sound like a family that would be a "bad influence."
"...we believe that we must become perfect, just like his son" The Apostle Paul never was able to achieve perfection, e.g. Php 3:12. John stated that anyone that says they don't sin is a liar, e.g. 1 John 1:8-10.
Don't take my word for it, read The Word.
Mali
I think you are doing a good job of trying to help us understand the
churchs philosophies and understan-dings. I am a former SF. Not that my thinking has really changed that much, it is the manner
in which I carry out said beliefs.
I remember going to brundsad one
year, how excited I was, I remember
the word that was brought from John
concerning the word of life, it was
something tangible, some that could
be touched and aprehended. The life of Christ is the most attract-
ive thing in the universe. However
comma, It is our understanding and
things we put on him that make it
unattractive. I'm not talking about "well the cross in an offense
" It most certianly is. And that is not what I am talking about.
Let me give an example, not only to you mali, but to all the readers. I went to a meeting one
sunday and the bro was talkinmg about wordliness being an attitude
of the heart. Afterward I heard two sisters talking about the childern in another fellowship playing nintendo. To which the other one replied, I cant Imagine my childern being so familiar with the world. I was unsure if we at-
tended the same meeting. See, what
I heard was, it wasn't the nintendo,
that was the problem, But how people interacted as they were play-ing it. Bitterness envy, strife anger , hatred, the list goes on and on. The bitterness etc
is wordliness, not the nintendo. God is a real smart guy, He's like
jeporday smart, he can use nintendo or what ever he wants to show us what lies inside of us, I know you know this. When I was in SF, I started wearing "modest"clothes, GOODDIEE for me , what a faithful sister I was, and look at all thoose wordly women I see around towm. I was soooooooooooooo modest and had renounced the ways of the world. I was wearing a dress, and one I got from the Thrift store so I was humble and wouldnt
make the other sisters jelous. Now
I am not the type to go out of my way to make someone jelous, but if
they have an issue with jelousy It
wont matter what I wear. THen God
was pleased to inform me what a selfrightous little arrogant twit i was and he really didnt care what I wore. It is all about the heart.
As far as cuting off family, the leading bro never advised me to cut
off ties. EVER Many of the members did limit their contact with thier families but it was never cutoff. There are of plenty
of people in SF who arent really "along" Ask your leading
bro. Some of them could be just
as harmful to this girl,(as you say her family is) if not more so because thier input can be much more insideous. NOt that I personally believe her family is harmful.
Seriously dude, I dont know what else to say, and worry some I have
wasted my time, I am not trying to
change your mind, but this supposed
to be an exchange of Ideas.
I would implore this girl to have contact with her family. To her family I would say pray, and when
you get to gether with her dont talk about andy spiritual things , listen to what she says, but dont
respond. Most likely she is still
in an acute phase of her merging
with her new found group, and the
more she feels pesecuted the more she will id with them and feel bonded to them. I am talking adlosecent development now as opposed to us and them. She is still probably trying to put the finish and touches on her own id.
Just love her, Remember, it is perfect love that casts out fear.
I will keep you all in my prayers.
Post a Comment