Is this a Cult? *UPDATED*
It's been several days since I've posted-- my mind and time has been occupied with a situation that I am at a loss as to how (if even how) I should respond. In a nutshell, the 18-year-old daughter of some friends has decided to "join" a group known as Smith's Friends. I've been able to find a little bit on the internet about the group. On the surface, they sound like a "christian group"--they refer to themselves as The Christian Church (no association with the Restoration Movement churches, some having the same "name"). But some of the teachings I've read about don't ring true with my understanding of Scripture. Here are some links that I've read:
Some of the teachings (according to one website) are that Jesus was not God and He sinned unconsciously when He was on the earth. The site also claims the group teaches that Christ died for His own sins, as well as the sins of man. Current day leader, Sigurd Bratlie's teachings are accepted by Smith's Friends as infallible.
Several things concern me about this situation (NOTE: I'm speaking from information I've been told by the parents and close friends of the family). First, is how quickly the group was able to convince this girl to join them-- telling her, in essence, that the church she belonged to was not a true church and the things she had been taught by the church and her parents were not right. Second, they convinced the girl to move into their home, out of her dorm where she recently began attending college on a full scholarship. This girl is VERY intelligent-- she graduated at the top of her class; the scholarship was to a well known, private university. Yet, somehow...
The most disturbing thing to me is that the person that lulled her into this group is one that should be a trusted individual in our community. It appears that he has been "grooming" this girl for some time by giving her literature, etc. to help indoctrinate her. I spoke with another parent who said their son brought home some of the literature; that boy did not join the group.
The parents are devastated. Please pray for John and Joanie. Also pray that their daughter will have her eyes opened to this deception.
UPDATE 08-21-09 : Updated broken or dead links
1,940 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 1940 Newer› Newest»Keith: Here we have another peek into cultic behavior. I think I have mentioned this before but there was a documentary released two years ago about Jonestown. In this film they interviewed most of the living survivors from that group. One of the topics talked about several times was the incredible amount of time devoted to doing church work. They prided themselves on how long they could go without sleep. It was a cultural thing that made you feel guilty if you weren’t working for the church. One of the men said that he eventually became so tired that he just couldn’t think for himself, and so he just gave up thinking and let Jim Jones think for him. In his mental state of exhaustion he just quit thinking for himself and let others tell him what to do.
I can see where, in a culture like this, if you don’t believe in God’s grace through the blood of Jesus Christ and you believe that the phrase “work out your salvation” means you have to physically work for your church, then spending time with friends and family that aren’t “like-minded” would be difficult. And if you take this thinking far enough then the more you work means that much more reward for you in Heaven.
The sad part about that is this is pure selfishness. The end product is greed, where I need to work so that my reward will be greater others when we get to Heaven. I guess they skip that part of the Bible that says the first will be last and the last will be first or consider others better than yourself.
If this is the mindset of SF then you really have to pity them. Just like the People’s Temple, they will work, work, work and the end is just a tragedy.
This whole mindset plays right into the hand of a narcissistic cult leader, because one of the things he just can’t afford is for his followers to spend time with their friends and families that aren’t part of the group. And as Sophie pointed out, he is so paranoid and insecure that he can’t risk losing control of the people around him. So he keeps them busy, busy, busy and therefore separated from any outsiders. Reminds me of the Veggie Tales character Madame Blueberry. Did you ever see that one? Madame Blueberry was always “much too busy” for anyone.
For this girl here, the guilt trip she is probably living with has got to be incredible. I’ll bet she hasn’t been allowed to spend one holiday or vacation with her own family since she moved in with this school teacher and his family. And the trauma associated with this isn’t limited to the girl. Her family and friends are being abused as well.
Leaders like this don’t really care about the suffering they cause other people. If he did he wouldn’t have moved her into his house to begin with. Instead he threatens them. That’s just another ploy to keep the family separated from the girl so he maintains his control. It’s all about him.
Mali: You said yesterday that you have never been to Brunstad but back in February you said “I have been to Brunstad and our local church is called Victory”. So which is it Mali? Have you been to Brunstad or not? I could appreciate your comments if I thought they were genuine, but when you get caught lying to people they won’t trust anything you say. Is that the kind of behavior that will earn you the words “Well done good and faithful servant”?
But just for the record, whoever you are, you accused us of being “quick to judge”. This issue has been going on for two years. And this all started because of the immoral behavior from this high school teacher. It wasn’t because of their religion. The main issue here is about behavior, not religion.
Another thing, I have read some of Sigurd Bratlie’s works, and it seems to me that Bratlie and SF are the ones who have judged all other Christian groups. It is Smith’s Friends who claim to be the one true bride of Christ and refer to the “organized religious world” as the “harlot”.
And one last thing Molly, you assume that this girl’s family is a “bad influence to her”. Aren’t you judging
Sorry, my previous post got cut off. Here is the last paragraph.
And one last thing Molly, you assume that this girl’s family is a “bad influence to her”. Aren’t you judging them? If you aren’t from here, then you don’t know them, so why are you so quick to judge them?
I did not say that they were a bad influence, i said IF they are. I am not a perfect person, I'm a young girl and I am sure half the stuff I say I shouldn't be. second, my name is not spelled Molly, it is spelled Mali. no offense, but it would be appreciated if that is respected. I am done saying things on this site. In the end, it wont matter and god will make the decisions. and to the sister, I have to say, I as taught by a brother that it is not what you wear, it is the spirit it it worn in. I know god will decide all things and I realize i shouldn't worry about matters such as these. in the end, god will make the decision and I have to worry about living for him and giving myself wholly. "He will come as a thief in the night."
Keith,
I've been following this blog for quite some time and decided it was time to contribute.
I left SF in 1986. I had been in it for about 16 years and had attended many conferences with Bratlie, Aslaksen, A. Smith and other "leading brothers" as the main speakers.
What goes on there now seems quite different from what I experienced.
Their website seems like a travel ad for a vacation resort. I can't believe how many activities they offer and now they even have their history in diorama (which seems sort of creepy). The emphasis in the 70s and 80s was to be a humble servant, deny yourself, keep your life simple, dress modestly, don't watch (or own) t.v. or go to movies, etc.
What happened to your friend's daughter is appalling, but I remember similar things happening where a young person would move in with an SF family and help with the children and housekeeping and also receive their indoctrination into SF.
I'm really certain that Mali is not who she says she is. I think she might be an SF member who is just trying to stir things up. Saying that she had been to Brunstad and then saying she had not and her comment "I am done saying things on this site" is typical SF. They are taught to avoid any type of controversy. I remember Aslaksen said "avoid any controversy as if it were the plague".
Also, something that Bratlie said keeps coming back to me. He once made the comment that "we want to use your house, your car and your money, but we don't want you".
And I remember one sister testifying that she wanted to be like a sardine - head cut off and basking in all that wonderful oil.
Does anyone know what happened to Steve Timmons? I thought I heard that he had left SF when they had their "revival" back in the 90s.
elf_asura: Your comment has been deleted. All of your comments will continue to be deleted. You do not allow comments on your own blog, therefore I feel no obligation to provide you with a platform here.
I would say this to you, and to Mali, you don't have to agree with what is said here. In fact, you don't even have to come to this blog and read it. No one is being forced to participate in this discussion.
gladtobegone: Thanks for the insightful post.
gladtobegone
Thanks for dropping by, we appreci-
ate your comments. I find what I am hearing to be very different from what I encountered. It was like you said it was, I agreed with
the humility etc. What I disagreed
with was how one manifested that humility, mostly their lifestyle
choices.
Mali, if your still watching, you are right, its not what you wear but the manner in whichyou wear it,
was always my point, so why does it matter what you wear. I still
dont get it.
I believe that some of the vemehence relayed could be because
many of the bloggers here may have
children and are able to ID with
this young girls family/
Lastly, to you SFers who patrol
this site to see what is being said. One of the reasons I left,
( I had called the leading bro one day and told him I wasnt coming to any more meetings, went back the next day) I was standing
out side the meeting hall with he
and another sister. He began to speak about getting tough with his
son for the way he was playing a
certian song. Sometimes firmness
is warrented but there was just something about the way he spoke
of it just didn't set right. It was then and there I made a decision that I could not submit my
self to someone with that kind of
mentality he was almost kind of gloating, I dont know...he could be Kind of intense, he wasnt being
mean of nasty, I had never really
seem him like that either and I just couldnt shake the feeling so I hightailed it out of there.
glad to be gone. I too heard Steve Timmons left duing the revival, Was he in Salem, He may
still be in the same area, have you
tried to google him????? I guess the "Revival" stirred a lot of people up like I heard the young bros were acting like chickens to prove they had lost their fear of
man so all I have to say to you
gladtobegone, YO TAMBIEN thats spanish for me too.
Sorry all for my run on sentences.
I wonder if one of this group
you are all talking aabout could
send me some Information.
Mali: You said, “i'm only a very young person, so i know very little, and I myself have never been to brunstad, but I have seen the transitions and believe with all my heart, that brunstad is the best place in the world.”
If you’re young as you stated then you have no idea how this girl’s family must feel because you probably DO NOT have children of your own. You can’t even begin to imagine what it would be like to love and raise a child, have a meaningful relationship with them, move them into a dormitory only to have a male teacher from the high school where she just graduated from move her into his home. I DO, however, have my own children so I CAN imagine how her parents must feel. A parent’s love is unexplainable in mere words and doesn’t just STOP when a child becomes ‘of age’. MOST parents are still concerned for their child’s safety, health, well-being, social influences, interests, character development, etc. far beyond when that person that they brought into this world becomes ‘of age’. I’m an older person but my parents are still interested and concerned for me and my well-being. It’s called love. Love doesn’t just go away because someone becomes ‘of age’. And, it has been stated on here several times by different people that this was a very close family and doesn’t sound as if they were a bad influence on her. If you had been reading this whole blog and following it, you would know all of this.
How would your parents feel if you abandoned and turned your back on them because of a male high school teacher then moved in with his family? I’ve asked before and I will again, is that what Jesus would do???
Hi again : ) Salem fellowship they currently believe themselves to be my "friends" ------ youth pastor of salem fellowship (smith's friends church closest to me) asked me if I thought they were my friends, him telling me they are my friends, and I was like NO! I view them as my enemies, they to this day appear to be making use of the "free market society" w/maclaey solutions - I can't say for 100% sure (aka so they can't sue me) and they followed me around macleay like a criminal and the youth pastor accused me of being a lieing cheating piece of shit ----- not stuffs I would "label" as "friends" doing.
They are having a big work party the 26th of this month, but I don't know I think I did enough love and good to my enemies the smith's friends for now! I'm pooped! Dragon boating went well ----- the dragon boating has 0 to do w/the smith's friends that's my own thing : ) my team won 2nd in the pearl division (a high division lost to wasabi a super high ranked team by 1 second : )
I fellowship much w/my apostolic christian aunt these days : ) still in "the faith" : ) maybe probably in "the faith" more then ever!!
(i'm curious what "elf asura" tried to post that was deleted not long ago?) "rental cooking" to answer someone's question on this blog, is what smith's friends at "macleay christian retreat" do ------ salem fellowship the smith's friends church I went to forever, is located at macleay christian retreat, the smith's friends volunteer sign up sign up sheet in lobby to rental cook, cook meals for the christian groups that rent out macleay christian retreat - the bad stuff that I said happened to me did happen, and everything else I've said about the smith's friends is stuff I believe to be true - stuff I lock stalk and barrel believe to be the case to the extent the smith's friends are finding it impossible to convince me otherwise.
I'm still allowed to view their website that only thing friendly about smith's friends to myself these days - I give them that I am able to view their website. (the last post on the salem fellowship guestbook was in may I do believe I single handedly shut down their guestbook ---- I got really fed up w/not being able to post on it e-mailed just about all them that posted in 08 congratulating them on being fabulous enough to post)
The least and the servant of all really will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, if you want to be something great someday you must be willing to humble yourself and lay down your life ---- be if not the least in a humble place! It's good it's good if we all put on the mindset of a servant! And humble ourselves - then we will be great in the kingdom of heaven having humbled ourselves and served one another - whether that is a word of encouragement or mowing a neighbors yard etc. etc. many chances we all have to do good to one another everyday it's good to do that, not hide our lamps under a shade ----- BUT LET OUR LIGHT SHINE!!!!!!!!!!! With humility and thanks and praises to our lord.
Gladtobegone: Thanks for sharing your experience. It is interesting to me that you have been gone for over 20 years and yet you are still interested enough to follow this discussion. One of the things I have learned is that even in the midst of an abusive group like the People’s Temple, and one of the things that keep people in the group is that there is some part of their goals and teaching that is very good. The members of the People’s Temple were so focused on ideals of the utopian society they thought they were building that they tended to ignore the warning signs that were all around them.
It’s kind of like standing in front of a large painting with your nose to the canvas. You can only see one small part of the painting and it looks very good. Other people may even be telling you that the painting is evil but you don’t believe them because the part you see is SO good. But if you back up far enough to see the whole painting you may discover also that the painting is indeed evil. That’s the part that false prophets are so good at, to keep you focused on the small part of the painting that is good so that you ignore the rest of it.
A lot of the stories that we read to our young children are so applicable. Stories like the Pied Piper, Pinocchio, and Little Red Riding Hood all have morals that warn our children to watch for people who try to deceive them and take advantage of them. Our teenagers think that they are too old for those stories but they are the main targets for people like this. Old enough to be out on their own yet still innocent enough to be deceived.
Jarsmom: It seems that you think I was a little hard on Mali. Maybe I was, but I don’t buy that innocent young girl act. And you know, the SF crowd wants to paint themselves as just innocent Christians trying to live holy lives not bothering anybody, yet she shows up and tries to lie and deceive the people reading this blog. I wasn’t going to let that person get away with it. That is not Christ like. If they really were living honestly and not deceiving people and destroying other families then people really would leave them alone. This blog, and others, wouldn’t exist. There would be nothing to talk about.
Diaseymae: What kind of information are you looking for? Are you interested in donating your house, your car, and your money? But seriously, have you read this whole blog? There is a great deal of information already here.
Gladtobegone, I read your post with interest. Steve Timmons is in fellowship with the group of believers who broke off from the SFs in the early 1990s during the "revival".
What led you to move on in the mid 1980s?
Did you grow up in the SFs?
The part of the painting that is the "smith's friends" that is spectacular in my opinion......Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" Jesus paved a way to go, more then just believe in jesus walla ones saved - he is the way the truth the life!!!!! The way he went ----- through the veil that is his flesh! Galatians 5:24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." This world like doesn't seem to be interested in all crucifying it's flesh to it's lusts and desires very much a ponderous thing to me 2 Corinthians 4: 8We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Those are the bible verses speaking to me most powerfully these days. That I be not on some give into the lusts of the flesh athon, go that way jesus consecrated through the veil that is his flesh......"always bearing about in the body the dying of the lord jesus" I am greately perplexed by this entire earth - what they doing?????????????? What they doing?????????? Do they not all know we are supposed to be always bearing about in our bodies the "dying of the lord jesus"??????????? What they doing?????? What this earth doing?????
Apostolic christian church whew I need that church, they keep me on the straight and narrow and that's where I need to be ---- not on no sort of give into no lusts of the flesh athons at all!!!!!!! Deny myself take up my cross follow jesus daily!
I forgot what else I was going to say???? My woolly mammoth bones arrived in the mail today (my new hobby is making woolly mammoth jewelry)
Have a great weekend everybody : )
Gladtobegone: On August 19, you said, “What happened to your friend's daughter is appalling, but I remember similar things happening where a young person would move in with an SF family and help with the children and housekeeping and also receive their indoctrination into SF.”
Why would a young girl who grew up in a loving Christian home all of a sudden turn her back on her own family and replace them with another family? I would guess that this teacher appeared as something he is not – a Godly Christian man. What kind of teacher would move a female student into his home knowing that her parents were against this – even if that’s what the girl thought she wanted? The whole time I’ve been reading this, I couldn’t help but wonder what this man’s wife thought about her husband bringing a young girl to live in their home. But, maybe you just answered that question. Maybe she likes it because this girl may be doing housekeeping and helping with their children so she doesn’t have to work so hard. I would never allow someone to live in my home knowing that it caused dissention between family members (theirs or mine) no matter how old she is. I don’t know of any other church that would do that. That’s just not what Christ would do and if we are truly Christians that’s not what we should do. So, it sounds like this man, his family, or his church are not what they pretend to be.
Yehudha said: “…what I saw and heard in my family disturbs me as an (non brainwashed) outsider…”
You used the term “brainwashed”. Do you believe that your parents are brainwashed? I take it from your own blog that you now practice Judiasm. Would you use that term for all who believe in Jesus Christ?
Sophie: I like your comments. Who wouldn’t want a deal where you get a free nanny for your children? I guess that’s one of the benefits to having your own home church where you teach that you must work out your salvation by doing church work. Since your home is the church then it only follows that they should work at your home. Gosh, what a concept. I think I need to start my own church, I have a lot of work I need done at my house.
A smith's friend from germany finally posted on salem fellowships secret password protected website, saying they enjoyed looking at salem fellowships summer conference version of the "survivor" tv show. Skipped the smith's friends didn't listen to a smith's friends mp3 instead listened to Zac Poonen, a good sermon he gave recently this verse super spoke to me Ezekiel 36:27 "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Zac poonen talking about being led by the spirit, that the holy spirit can literally lead a person to "walk in my statutes" Galatians 5:25 "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." This verse speaks to me to much today Ephesians 2:2 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,..........." That's how it is when a person lives after the flesh, "the course of this world" I believe is a way of living walking in the flesh!!!!!! 1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."
I'm going to work to pray more be in god's word more listen to zac poonen and other various god fearing servants of god more - that I live and walk in the holy spirit! Not after the flesh which leads to death!!!!! Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Sat and prayed a prayed and prayed to god this morning, hadn't prayed like that for years. I have good news things aren't all grim and black post leaving the smith's friends for me (as I once thought, thinking I'd never find the "light of god's word" outside them) Seek and ye SHALL find. All the wisdom and revelation in all the fullness of all it, exists outside the smith's friends, the entirety of everything that would make up the body of christ exists outside the smith's friends.....at least at zac poonens church!!!!!!!! (type in zac poonen on google you'll find his church - zac poonen according to the smith's friends used to lead all of the smith's friends, then they claim he got very very prideful and had to be banished????? zac poonen says he was never a leader of their church, he says he makes trips to churches) I'll admit I have a miserable time loving the smith's friends, I think I need more healing via holy spirit, via some real christians, think there's a light at the end of the tunnel and when I get there I'll be saved and very holy spirit filled and have love for the smith's friends in my heart ----- just not be a part of their church!!!!!!! part of zac poonens church online anyways and pry nother christian church or two and the apostolic christians pry : ) happy saved, and w/a heart for the smith's friends someday I'm pretty sure about that : )
Yehudha : I agree with you on the money deal. Regarding the term brainwashed, I found these definitions…
“To impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim's prior beliefs”
“A forcible attempt by indoctrination to induce someone to give up his/her basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas.”
So if this girl, before having the encounter with this teacher in class, used to be very close to her family and believe that her parents loved her, then suddenly moves from her dorm room into this man’s house and won’t have anything to do with her family, I would definitely think that this fits the definition of brainwashed, don’t you?
For the edification of those reading this blog, I will reproduce a short piece on this subject. I just have a copy and it does not identify the source so I can’t give credit, but it is very good. It follows:
Brainwashing has become almost a household word in the last two decades or so. In 1961, Robert J. Lifton wrote the definitive book on the subject, ‘Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism’ after studying the effects of mind control on American prisoners of war under the Communist Chinese.
In Chapter 22 of his book, Lifton outlines eight criteria of mind control, whether used by political, religious, or psychological cults. I will share a brief overview of them in my own words.
1. Milieu Control: “Milieu” is a French word meaning “surroundings; environment.” Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation. Recruits can be physically separated from society, or they can be warned under threat of punishment to stay away from the world’s educational media, especially when it might provoke critical thinking. Any books, movies or testimonies of ex-members of the group, or even anyone critical of the group in any way are to be avoided.
2. Mystical Manipulation: In religious cults, God is ever-present in the workings of the organization. If a person leaves for any reason, accidents or ill-will that may befall them are always attributed to God’s punishment on them. For the faithful, the angels are always said to be working, and numerous stories circulate about how God is truly doing marvelous things among them, because they are “the truth”. The organization is therefore given a certain “mystique” that is quite alluring to the new recruit.
3. Demands for Purity: The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience. One’s conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group, as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as either good or evil, depending on their relationship towards the cult.
4. The Cult of Confession: Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. The members are to be reported if found walking contrary to the rules. There is often a tendency to derive pleasure from self-degradation through confession. This occurs when all must confess their sins before each other regularly, creating an intense kind of ‘oneness’ within the group. It also allows leaders from within to exercise authority over the weaker ones, using their ‘sins’ as a whip to lead them on.
5. The Sacred Science: The cult’s ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too ‘sacred’ to call into question, and a reverence is demanded for the leadership. The cult’s ideology makes an exaggerated claim for possessing airtight logic, making it appear as absolute truth with no contradictions. Such an attractive system offers comfort and security.
6. Loading the Language: Lifton explains the prolific use of ‘thought-terminating cliches’, expressions or words that are designed to end the conversation or controversy. We are all familiar with the use of the clichés ‘capitalist’ and ‘imperialist’, as used by antiwar demonstrators in the 60’s. Such clichés are easily memorized and readily expressed. They are called the ‘language of non-thought’, since the discussion is terminated, not allowing further consideration.
7. Doctrine over Person: Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experiences seem. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrinal logic. The person is only valuable insomuch as they conform to the role models of the cult. Common-sense perceptions are often disregarded if they are hostile to the cult’s ideology.
8. Dispensing of Existence: The cult decides who has the right to exist and who does not. They decide who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. The leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders can be deceived, for they are not fit to exist!
Harold,
Thank you for that insightful article. It is truly frightining how eaisly we can be manipulated and how eaisly we can see some of these traits used to some extent in
lots of groups, of course we are talking extremes when it comes to
cult indoctrination.
Giving it to God. Praise God, I am
glad you are finding fellowship. see, I told you they were out there
SV believes they truly are alone in
their belief systems, but they are
not as lonley as they believe. I think that it is human nature to believe that either alone or corporately we have some
quality that elevates above someone
else ,ie. we are the only ones who
have the truth. I think that in itself leaves us open to even greater deception. If we could all truly heed the admonition to
walk in the spirit, you cant walk
in the spirit and fulfill the lust
of the flesh. It is up to us to
walk in the spirit, or not. That is open to all of us, not just certian groups or people. We all want to believe there is someone or
something bigger than ourselves to
rescue us from ourselves, sometimes
we misplace that belief into a person or group other than Jesus.
Harold: Thank you for posting the definitions of brainwashing. The whole time I’ve been reading this blog, I couldn’t help but believe that is what has taken place with this girl. It is certainly understandable why her family is so upset. Who would want to see this done to one of their children? I’m pretty sure this man wouldn’t. It reminds me of the Nazi Youth that Hitler formed, turning the youth against their families so that he could use them for his own purposes.
Jarsmom: You said, “SV believes they truly are alone in their belief systems, but they are not as lonley as they believe. I think that it is human nature to believe that either alone or corporately we have some quality that elevates us above someone else ,ie. we are the only ones who have the truth. I think that in itself leaves us open to even greater deception.”
Actually, isn’t that what got satan kicked out of heaven? That is the sin of pride. And yes you’re right, it is human nature to believe that we may have some quality that elevates us above someone else…we’re more intelligent, materialistically wealthy, talented, beautiful, or we’re the only ones with the truth. That is pride…thinking that ‘I’m better than someone else’ or ‘I know something someone else doesn’t’. And, you’re absolutely correct in the fact that it leaves us open to even greater deception.
Look at what happened to Adam and Eve. When God created them, He gave them a free will…not robots or puppets that He would control. All He expected was for them to trust and obey Him. But, along came satan who made his crafty, deceptive offer to Eve in the garden. He tempted her with the proposition of being ‘as wise as God’. Unfortunately for all mankind since then, she gave into temptation because she wanted to be ‘as wise as God’. And then Adam made the same stupid mistake. But, when they got caught, instead of owning up to their sin, they started playing the blame game. Adam blamed God for putting the woman there with him and she blamed satan. When all the while, it was their own fault for not trusting and obeying God. They took their trust away from God and misplaced it in satan. So he was able to deceive them. He loves getting our focus off of God and onto other things. The consequence was they were removed from the garden and work, pain, death, and much suffering and evil were brought into the world.
God did not elevate some of us over others. There are certain people who would like to think so. Again, look at Hitler and what he did! (Of course, look at what happened to him as a result of his arrogance and pride, too.)
GOD created us ALL equal to each other. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall never die but have everlasting life.” The world is referring to every single human being…it doesn’t mean only one person or only one group of people. But, there is a condition attached to that passage. God’s part was giving the gift…Jesus. Our part is accepting that gift. From what I can tell, SF have been deceived into believing that they are THE only chosen bride of Christ and that they must work to earn their salvation…that they must become perfect on this earth in order to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-10 says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” This passage says clearly that we are saved BY GRACE, through faith, NOT BY WORKS so that we will not boast about what we’ve done. It is a gift…we boast about what God has done for us through Christ. You don’t have to work to receive a gift, you just have to accept it. It does say ‘to do good works’ but that is a result of being ‘God’s workmanship’. We do ‘good works’ because we have the Holy Spirit living in us…not so that we can get approval by God or gain entrance into heaven.
John 8:32 says, “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” The truth is that God loves ALL people equally and wants ALL people to come to know Him as Lord and Savior. The Bible is full of scripture dealing with grace and mercy for ALL who acknowledge that they are sinners and are repentant. SF.
Ephesians 4:14 says, “Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ.” If I understand correctly, SF teaches that Jesus wasn’t God in the flesh, that He sinned, and that He died for His own sins as well as the sins of man. That’s interesting because Hebrews 4:14-15 says, “Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet without was without sin.” So it is clear even from just this one passage, that Jesus was without sin. So again, SF is deceptive in their teachings, leading people astray from the truth.
1 John 1:8-10 says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in our lives.” 1 John 2:2 says, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” The sins of the whole world…not just a few who say they are the chosen ones.
Jarsmom: You also stated, “We all want to believe there is someone or something bigger than ourselves to rescue us from ourselves, sometimes we misplace that belief into a person or group other than Jesus.”
It sounds as if that is what this girl has done. But not only her, it sounds as if many people from SF have put undue dependence and trust on its leaders. That is one thing that leads me to believe that if this isn’t a cult, it certainly isn’t a healthy church. Healthy churches lead people to have a personal relationship with Christ, being obedient to Him; not to a church leader who are also only human and fallen. Remember Jesus died for them, too. Healthy churches also want its congregation to love others, live in peace with everyone including their family members. SF have been deceived and deceived others by their misuse of Luke 14. Hebrews 12:14 says, “Make every effort to live in peace with ALL men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”
Thank you for your contributions. I’m glad you’ve found your way to freedom in Christ.
First, to put my bias/background in the foreground: I grew up in the church/SF whatever you want to call it. I no longer attend, although I have deep and continuing friendships with many members.
I would like to relay some personal experiences to balance some of the comments here that have been second-hand, at best.
I grew up in a warm and loving home. No, I wasn't allowed to watch TV. I wore skirts or dresses all the time (except for gym!). I went to church every Sunday.
The only lasting effects this had on me were positive: I have a lot of empathy for kids who, for whatever reason, are 'different', and I'm not afraid to be myself, no matter what other people think. I dress in the way that I find comfortable, watch the movies I enjoy, etc.
I cannot speak to the sermons etc I have not heard, but as far as doctrine goes, here's what I grew up understanding:
Jesus never sinned consciously.
He did this through the power of the Holy Spirit, which is available to us.
'The Church' is NOT synonymous with 'SF'. i.e. one does not have to be a regularly attending church goer to SF meetings to be saved or to belong to the Body of Christ. (As my dad explained it to me once, there must have been 'the church' through all the time after Christ's life on earth, since He is the head, and a head must have a body!)
In the earlier years, the church was definitely more inward-looking i.e. not very into outreach. That was criticized by others as being in contradiction to The Great Commission, as well as selfish, etc. Now that there is more emphasis on missions and outreach, certain people claim this is all about 'seducing' people into SF, etc. I guess you can't please all of the people all of the time!
Looking back on my years growing up, I honestly think that some of the not-so-perfect things (like very strict rules regarding dress or not having a TV or not encouraging higher education) were more a result of peoples' culture than any specific teachings in the church.
Was I treated in a godly, Christ-like way by every member all the time? No, and I don't think you'll find a single gathering of Christians anywhere on this planet that can claim that kind of behaviour.
But I did experience consistent, caring, and loving behaviour from most members, most of the time. When I chose to leave, different individuals approached me about my decision, but not one threatened me in any way, either with loss of social group or anything else.
I know members of the church who are medical doctors, naturopaths, nurses, engineers, English lit grads, housewives, teachers, plumbers, couriers, construction workers...I know members of the church who dress stylishly (keeping up with modern fashion), or like skaters, or like hippie/back-to-nature types...I know members who enjoy reading, skating, skiing, waterskiing, running...I know members who will not touch alcohol even when its baked in food, members who enjoy the occasional glass of wine, and members who break out the beer when they get together with friends...I know members who have a rough or even uncouth sense of humour, members who have a cerebral sense of humour, members who don't have a sense of humour (just kidding!)...I know members who believe firmly that a woman should never cut her hair and (female) members who wear their hair shorter than their shoulders...I know members who live in small apartments in poorer parts of neighbourhoods, members who live in what can only be described as mansions, members who live on hobby farms...do you get it yet???
The church is made up of INDIVIDUALS, all of whom make personal, individual decisions regarding their personal, individual lives. They meet together because they share beliefs around the life of a Christian. That has been my personal experience.
I have read many comments here that I found upsetting (because they are either, in my opinion, based on inaccuracies, or because my experience in the church was so radically different), but I have only responded with things that I know of first hand.
To the last girl that posted true enough every church is going to have it's flaws and what not. But NOT every church makes use of the "free market society" around the world via building ships for what looks to be church "fundraising" and building houses in norway which it very much looked to be for church "fundraising" I read on greisses site that also in norway looks to be they have did construction work there for "fundraising"
Brother that I chat w/who reads this site, all up in my buisiness trying to tell me I don't understand "forgiveness" oh I understand forgiveness sometime's it's hard to forgive, when a people's done that much bad stuffs to me ------ it's hard to forgive. My love for the smith's friends even after forgiving them is only going to go so far they are my enemies!!!!!!!!!!! If any church loves to make use of the "free market society" with building ships, and houses, and construction jobs like that ------- THAT CHURCH IS MY ENEMY!!!!!!!
It's been hard on my faith, I sit and stare somedays at macleay solutions website, wondering when's god going to smite the hell out of the smith's friends in salem????????? Where's HIS wrath at??????? Surely it must be kindled!!!!!!!! Surely they won't be able to just go on and on and on and on making use of the "free market society" with that brother owned construction buisiness (if that's what they are doing and from all my conversations w/people in that church including the youth pastor it looks to very well be so) surely there is 0 turning of shadow with GOD!!!!!!!!! Surely god is to be feared!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ABOVE MEN!!!!!!!!!
God's wrath could be turned back though jews in the bible turned back gods wrath few times w/diseases that broke out in their camps etc..... Daniel 9:9 "To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;"
But why even risk angering god like that???????
I fear god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God has to power to save me or send me to hell!!!!!!!!
Psalm 145:8 "The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy." I recogn god super must be of this verse......if I was god I wouldn't rained fire down from the heavens and engulfed all the smith's friends churches wouldn't made a huge show of it......then I'd give all the smith's friends that monkey disease so they'd grow hair out of all their pores in their bodies, then I'd send more monkeys on the earth, and have all the monkeys steal all the smith's friend's children (the babies of the smith's friends would drink monkey milk)......then I'd be like ahhhh ya, that's good! They'd all live the smith's friends as monkeys : )
god's just clean slllllllllooooooowwwwwwwwww to anger. But you know I figure it's still best not to do stuff on purpose to piss god off!!!!!
Smith's friends are lucky god pry won't turn them into monkeys, pretty safe to say ------ but I expect god to finally get good and angry at the smith's friends anyday now. God does get mad sometime's!!!!!! Lot's examples of people's in the bible being sucked into hell alive, plagues etc. I thought what god did in egypt was way cool, that was way cool of god, sending locusts on the egyptians ----- He used some creativity there ----- was thinking like me some then : )
God likes to give people chances, if they were turned into monkeys they wouldn't have a chance. ------ but if I was god smith's friends would totally be monkey's right now : ) totally!!!!!
Giving it to God: I understand your frustration. It is hard to understand why God allows bad people to do the things they do. Have you ever read ‘The Hiding Place’ by Corrie ten Boom? She lived in Holland during WWII. It is a wonderful story about the evils of Nazi Germany before and during the war and how she survived and ultimately, years later, found the strength to forgive those who committed atrocities against her. But you have to think about living in Germany at that time and wondering when God was going to smite Hitler when he was directing the murder of millions of his own people. Not to mention the thousands of soldiers on both sides that gave their lives in that war. But vengeance is God’s, not ours.
“How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, ‘VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY’ And again, ‘THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.’ It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Heb 10:29-31 NAS
I need to focus on my relationship with Jesus Christ and not let people like Smith’s Friends distract me. God will deal with them in His time. It may not be here on earth where we can see it but rest assured they will (as we all will) have to answer for their deeds. It’s also easy be envious of others when they have so much and some seem to have so little, especially when you know that they did not come by it honestly. But that is another way that satan works on us to get our focus off of the main thing (Jesus Christ). So I try real hard to keep the main thing the main thing. Some days I do better than other days.
A lot of people in this community know what is going on here. But most importantly God knows what this group is doing, just like He knows what’s going on at the Salem Fellowship too. In the end, we will all have to answer to God, and that will be a “terrifying thing” for some.
And Dawn, thanks for sharing your experience. I do have a couple of questions for you. If your experience was as good as you described, why leave? Another question is from your statement that “Jesus never sinned consciously”. The implication is that Jesus was guilty of ‘unconscious’ sin? Can you provide a biblical reference for that?
I disagree w/elf asura's last post, sometime's it's a act of love to say to a church "hey wait a minute making use of the ------ free market society ------ w/construction buisiness, building ships, building houses isn't right!!!!!!!!!!!!" that can be a act of love.........Proverbs 27:5 "Open rebuke is better than secret love."
How is your pointing a finger at me "elf asura" by telling me in private e-mail that I need to learn more about forgiving etc. that e-mail hit me as a point the finger athon, I'm not feeling the love of christ from you not from that last post either on this site, I hope it isn't deleted either, be best your post is left! I just wish you'd stop the point the finger athon at me, I get it you think I'm shit, you think I'm a sorrowful sad piece of shit, I get it!
I have love for the smith's friends, but uh not going to their church anymore and supporting their evil doings.
Now, that post brother avy I agree w/it is good to give thanks always! Ephesians 5:20 "Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;" I'm thankful that you and many other smith's friends have been mean to me (not all smith's friends though some are nice to me) and that it at least looks to be looks to be much use of the "free market society" has been made by the smith's friends that things happened to push me away from the church and keep me away from the church aka the smith's friends ------- even if the smith's friends were to one day sue me ----- I'll be thankful I stood up for what I believed was right and never backed down --- let's say worse case scenario the smith's friends never built boats for fundraising or houses that all that money really went to the smith's friends doing the work that it was somehow legit jobs via the church they got ---- to me it looked like something bad was going on and to take a stand for what I believe is right is the right thing to do - to say wait a minute that don't look right and keep saying that til I find out that oh ya you all really were paid full wages that the smith's friends also have employment agencies by which they hire their church members exclusively or nearly so if I find that out that's odd but ok! I'm thankful that I had to leave the "smith's friends" I believe all things work for the good for those who are called unto god's purpose and it has worked for my good much to have/find much more love for people outside of the smith's friends. Even if horror's befall me, nothing can separate me from the love of christ jesus........last night I just sat in my bed thinking about how fortunate I am that jesus lives in me, so many people don't have that ----- so often I have taken that for granted.........yes I have nothing but things to give thanks for. Everything works for my good, whether it is to humble me, or to cause me to be so desperate I pray to god w/all my heart and soul - or just clean to have patients. Romans 5:3 "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;"
My flesh sure does and has complained about you pointing a finger at me slews elf-asura and I'll work not to do that. I for sure have a flesh nothing good dwells in, wants to get made etc. etc.
I'm thankful immensely thankful for this blog, and others like it ---- it's good people take a stand for what they believe is right......but you are right brother avy it is also good we all give thanks to the lord always for all things. Nothing has, or can I don't believe nothing never such is my love for jesus, nothing will ever ever ever separate me from the love of christ jesus.......I'm schitzophrenic for those who don't know, it's jesus living in me that has made this mental illness bearable, the bad days for me when I'm hallucinating a lot of stuffs.....having jesus living in me has made all the difference in the world for me, I can face schitzophrenia w/christ jesus I can do all things in christ jesus. A tremendous help jesus is to me these days and I'm more thankful for jesus in my life and my love for jesus is stronger then it's ever been........I'd be in bad shape without jesus. I couldn't praise and thank jesus enough so I'll end this post there.
elf_asura: It is my pleasure to delete your drive by posts. You make me laugh.
elf_asura: BTW, if what you read here bothers you so much, no one is twisting your arm to slither, er uh, come here.
Elf: (responding to your most recently deleted comment) Feel free to come here and be "entertained." When you decide to open your own blog up to comments, maybe I'll leave your comments here for others to "enjoy." Until then...DELETED.
You really don't add anything intelligent to the conversation anyway.
Elf: Before your comments were deleted, I was able to catch a glimpse of them. I’m really sorry if God’s Word offends you so much. As a person who claims to be a Christian, one would think that you’d get much joy, pleasure, comfort, and wisdom from reading and studying it.
Hebrews 4:12-16 says, “For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, and of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in ALL things as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.”
"elf asura" you said.."In India, just now as hundreds of Christians are being killed by Hindu fanatics and there is not a word about it in the world media and when the fat, rich Christians ignore such things, I am increasingly amused at the "absurdity" of the Gospel in terms of how people propagate it. Many are they who spout it, but few are they who are killed for it." You live in India what are you doing about all this stuffs???????????
And I believe a person has to pick there battles, none us can save all the earth single handedly, it's good we all do something, for me that might just be giving $10 to the foodbank this week something small like that ---- is just as good as me going and getting myself killed. I don't particularly want to be killed!!!!!!! Rather serve jesus alive!!!!!!!
You want to be killed brother oopps uh "elf asura"?????? You going to go die for jesus?????????
There is a simplicity in christ jesus 2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." What does god require of us?????? Think deuteronomy says it good what god requires of us......Deuteronomy 10:12 "And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul," I also think it's pertinent to add to love our neighbors as ourselves to love people. (there's a love your neighbor bible verse somewhere I'm pretty sure about that) I highly recommend seeking first the kingdom of heaven daily keep prayer reading your bible daily a priority.......Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
I work hard these days to read my bible everyday, to pray, I believe that is what god wants from me ".......fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul" all that!!!!!!! Love jesus w/all my strength might and mind like nother bible verse also much implies! Mark 12:30
"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."
A definate simplicity in christ jesus I believe exists, in loving Him w/all my heart stength might, do everything as unto the lord wholeheartedly. What's talked about in Mark 12:30 says in that verse it's the "first commandment" that super speaks to me a slew that that's the "first commandment"
I am and will continue to work to do that much that "first commandment" everyday, I'm thankful that being in the lowly place I am that god is hearing my prayers that His grace is over my life, for another day to read the bible and pray and work much harder to seek first the kingdom of heaven, not things on this earth that just rot etc. I want to have/keep that life more abundantly that jesus came to bring me - not love the things of this earth anymore keep/have my treasure up above........a good treasure........better then anything this earth could offer!
I believe wholeheartedly god desires of me the things I've spoken of here. I'm in no hurry to all get myself killed. I like being alive, I like the new opportunity everyday to draw nearer to jesus.
Dawn: I am still trying to find a reference in the Bible that refers to Jesus Christ as guilty of unconscious sin and I haven’t been able to find it.
Giving it to God: My understanding is that you had been associated with the Salem fellowship for 10+ years and seem to be very well versed in scripture. Is this something you are familiar with and where can I find it in the Bible?
Jarsmom?
Any Smith’s Friends people out there who are reading this blog. Can you provide a biblical reference for this concept of conscious and unconscious sin?
And Elf: I was able to catch your last post. I know there are many people groups around the world being persecuted and murdered for their faith in Jesus Christ. It has been that way for two thousand years and will continue until He returns.
I make no appologies for having the priviledge of being born in a free country whose government was founded on biblical prinicpals but that makes me no less a Christian than any others. And one of the duties of a Christian is to confront evil wherever we see it whether it be in India, Mozambique, or right here in our own home town.
Persecution comes in many forms, not just from someone holding a gun to your head. I believe that when a church leader, claiming to be a man of God, uses the Bible and a public school classroom to separate young people from their families he is persecuting the word of God and this community of Christians. When he and his family attend other church services and behave rudely, talking and laughing among themselves during the whole service, that is irreverent behavior that mocks Jesus Christ and is a form of persecuting the church.
I also believe this concept of conscious and unconsious sin is just one example of that which you speak of – twisting the word of God.
And by the way, your abrasive attitude does not help the cause of Christ.
Col 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.
And there is Paul’s charge to Timothy:
2Tim 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction.
Only one bible verse that I know of in the entire bible talking about jesus and sin Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." I blow the whistle on all smith's friends (not sure if all them believe jesus had unconscious sin) but I am pretty sure jesus absolutely DID NOT have unconscious sin ------ this bible referee's call is "without sin" and that means both unconscious and consiouc 0 sin!!!!!!! But he had a real flesh like ours, a real real real human flesh, totally like ours, "tempted in all points" just without any sort of sin neither conscious or unconscious.
Just finished my last dragon boat race for the season, the 1 race we got a super good time of 2:19 (that's 2 minutes 19 seconds for 500 meters of boating fast) before that race I prayed and kissed my lucky wolly mammoth tusk neglace ---- course it was mostly that I prayed so much before the race. Then I was a dork for the finals and didn't pray!!!!!!! Now on out before races I will be praying a slew!!!!!
Hope everyone's week is going good (figured out why dieting has tired me out so much, stuff in salad dressings make it hard for people to get iodine in their systems - got some kelp vitamins that have iodine in them am sure tommorow I will have energy again : ) ---- skinnyish american about to eat a salad for dinner : ) and watch spiderwick chronicles a kids movie : ) ---- love each other love jesus someday we'll be in heaven : )
Harold - "Giving it to God" gave the main verse that SF uses to claim that Jesus had unconscious sin. They used to say that Jesus probably put his "finger in the pudding" as a child and had to be scolded by his mother. (Does that really constitute unconscious sin?)
As far as unconscious sin in the believer they use Romans 7 and 8.
Especially Romans 8:13 - "put to death the deeds of the body...".
They believe that God will reveal unconscious sin to the believer (deeds of the body) and that when it is revealed it is to be put to death. I never saw this as twisting the Word of God until you questioned it here and now I'm going to "rethink' this.
I should answer your question as to why I left SF 20+ years ago. There were two main reasons - 1) the lifestyle and 2)the hatred for Christians not in SF. There was much condemnation for not following the outward restrictions on modesty, speech, amusements, etc. Then I changed jobs in 1984 and found myself with other Christians whom I wanted to fellowhship with, but couldn't because of the separatist teachings of SF. I remember loaning a tape of an Oslo meeting to another Christian at work. I asked him what he thought and he said he had never heard anything so critical and condemning of Christians that weren't SF.
As to why I still read about SF and contribute to this blog - I have two close relatives that are still in SF and am hoping and praying that they will see the errors of this cult and leave it.
Looks like they have different standards now. It was a sin for men to wear shorts back then. I asked my wife if she thought that the "leading brothers" in Salem (that's where we were in SF) now wore shorts. We laughed about it, but then I saw one of the LB's a few weeks ago and lo and behold he was wearing shorts!
Harold.
I agree with giving it to God where
it comes to Jesus comitting uncon-
scious sin. Obviously he allowed himself to be tempted and yet did
not sin, there is nothing about un-
conscious sin alluded to. I am not
aware that was taught, either that
or I was real real real dense, and
I think I was a pretty quick study
with their teaching. And to some
bro patrolling the site, just for
arguments sake, I am obviously talk-ing about mental ascension to
the teaching. There is a good deal
that I still do belive. But I dont
believe jusus was man only here on
earth, the holy spirit gave him 1/2
of his DNA YES????????? . I donot
believe Jesus died for his own sim
I dont remember being taught that
either.
I do remembeR being taught that when confronted with temptation,we
have power to resist tempation and
not fall into sin. This is a life
long process. My understanding is
that only those who have over come
sin completely conscious and uncon-
scious can be saved body soul and
spirit. Those who have had thier
sins washed away are known to have
the forgiveness of sin and their
spirit is saved. I dont quite know
how this will look in etrnity as op
posed to someone saved body soul
and spirit. I do know that the latter will have thier full comp-
lement of Identity inc a resurec-
tion body, I guess those of just
saved our spirit will be floating
around heaven, was never quite sure
about that one. I'm not trying to
be critical just sharing info from
what I can remember .
Glad to be gone. I read your last
post, I undersstand completely about the lifestyle and the dissing
other christians. The SF I knew
that had interactions with other
christians on a reg basis werent
quite so vehement and would frequen
tly say " They have pretty good un
derstanding " and usually didnt put
them down. AS far as your example
of the shorts goes, I just never
will get it, I noticed the same thing. HOw could it be one day
something was wrong, and then some-
is said in Norway and presto sud-
denly it is ok.
Greetings to all.
Hi—I am a member of Smith’s Friends and noticed the request for information regarding unconscious sin.
Harold—In response to your question, Jesus couldn’t have sinned unconsciously because the act of sinning (by its very definition) is a conscious act. When we are tempted to sin (In James 1:13-15 we read that we are tempted when we are drawn away by our desires and enticed), we have a choice to give in to that temptation or overcome (say no and choose to obey God’s will rather than our own desires).
We all have a body of sin (a flesh in which dwells nothing good - Rom. 7:18; 1 John 1:8). If we didn’t, we couldn’t be tempted to sin since we are tempted by our own desires. Jesus had this same flesh, or He could not have been tempted in all points just as we are yet without sin. Having a body of sin doesn’t mean he sinned, because He didn’t. It does means he was able to be tempted to sin, and when He was tempted He overcame—every single time!
Deeds of the body (perhaps what you are referring to as unconscious sin) are things we do that come as a result of having a flesh in which nothing good dwells. Paul makes this clear in Rom. 7. In verse 17 he writes: “If then I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells.” Here Paul makes a clear separation between himself and the sin that dwells in him.
For example, perhaps I do something with the very best of intentions but afterwards, I realize my actions didn’t have the intended effect. Perhaps there was some honor seeking there or impatience that I wasn’t aware of. When I become aware of it afterward, I can judge it and “put it to death.” It is this flesh that we get rid of (put to death), little by little when we say “no” in the time of temptation and “yes” to God. This is why Paul writes in Rom. 6:1: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”
And in James 1:12 it is written: “Blessed is the man who endures in temptation; for when he has been approved he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love him.” If we give in and sin when we are tempted, how is that “enduring in the time of temptation”? I am personally very thankful that I have the possibility to get rid of the sin that dwells in me. I can say from personal experience that it is a life worth living. I hope this helps. All the best.
Clarification: In the example I gave, I didn't sin because I didn't conciously do something I knew to be wrong or let in thoughts that I knew to be wrong. However, later on, when I see that my actions were still influenced by the sin that dwells in me, I can judge that sin (impatience, honor-seeking or whatever it is) and not agree with it, so that next time, I recognize the sin for what it is.
Anna_crisn: Thanks for your input. You might be surprised that I don’t really have a problem with what you wrote. I agree with you. I would, however, use the word “repent” instead of “put to death”, but I think we are talking about the same thing.
But for the record, it’s not what I am referring to as unconscious sin. Smith’s Friends are the only ones that I am aware of that use the term conscious sin. I just made the inference that if there is conscious sin then the corollary to that would be unconscious sin.
I’m still curious why, when talking about Jesus, would Dawn add the word “consciously” to the statement that “Jesus never sinned”? Why not just say that Jesus never sinned, period.
I would also like to know what translation of the Bible you are quoting. I have been trying to match your quotes with several different translations and haven’t found it yet.
I use the NKJV translation. And you're right. Jesus did not sin. Period.
anna_crisn: If we can agree on this then what is it that separates us? What are we not “like minded” about as 2b2bnot said. Why can’t we fellowship together as believers in Jesus Christ? Why does this local fellowship slam all other Christians here by saying this on the SF web site:
“In spite of all this religious activity (here in Oklahoma), the teaching of victory over all manifest and conscious sin is virtually unheard of”
Dawn: I appreciate your post. However, you made the statement “I would like to relay some personal experiences to balance some of the comments here that have been second-hand, at best.”
There have many people post on here that had either been a member of SF for many years like Jarsmom, Crystal, The Truth, P.S., yukonbound2, Penguin41, and gladtobegone who shared their own first-hand experiences. Then there was Yehudha who is a former SF also but apparently pulled his posts. Some of the bloggers live in the community such as Harold, or know the girl personally like Keith and Heart2Heart. And then there’s Heather (who is a current member of SF) who I asked a question back at the beginning of the summer and she still has yet to answer it. Can you really state that these comments have been “second-hand, at best”?
Anna
Thank you for your comments. I think harold is right. Some of
what we are talking about is the
same stuff only different labels.
I am however still a little con-
fused why the friends still say that the Harlott has no revelation
over the body of sin. Whith the ex
ception of some who realize that
this notion is not really correct.
I know lots of people who are "in
the Harlott Chruch" That wouldn't
disagree a bit with what youve just
written, me included. As Ive stated in other posts I left for
lifestyle issues not for teachings.
I still believe most of what I
learned there.
Can you share with us how the rest
of the "Church" is feeling about
this whole ordeal??? I know there
is much said about being Jesus being good, and how we should be
good to one another. Dont you or
any others in SF feel it would be
good if this girl could have more
interaction with her parents. I know of people who have children
who have left the church and still
have contact with them. one such
fellow lived in his parents base-
ment. So on an intellectual level
I understand, a bit, on an emotional level not at all. I ap-
preciate your clear communication
with us.
Keith, BTW, I hope things are al-
ready better with your friends and
their daughter.
Jarsmom – I can’t speak about “how the rest of the church is feeling about this whole ordeal.” I can only speak for myself. And I know next to nothing about the situation in Oklahoma. I have never been there in my life. I can pray though. I can pray for all of you who are struggling to understand and make sense of the situation, and I can pray that God works out the situation for the very best. We can move God’s hands through our prayers. He knows what’s best. Writing my opinions in this blog won’t help anything, but prayer will. Of that I am certain.
Harold – I am happy to have fellowship with anyone who is interested in a life of victory over sin while here on this earth, regardless of denomination or affiliation. However, seeing as this is a discussion blog discussing whether a situation that occurred is right or wrong, and I honestly know next to nothing about the situation, I am going to give the matter into God’s hands, and as I told Jarsmom, I will pray that God works the situation out for the best. And in the meantime, I am going to take heed to myself and the doctrine, for in doing this, I will save both myself and those who hear me. (1 Tim. 4:16). All the best!
Ana: Thank you for your contributions. You seem to be honest and sincere. So, I’d like to ask a question. You mentioned, “I am happy to have fellowship with anyone who is interested in having victory over sin while here on this earth, regardless of denomination or affiliation”. We have heard that phrase “victory over sin” used repeatedly in this blog. Can you help clarify exactly what that means? Because, as Harold pointed out, I think we may all talking about some of the same things, maybe just using different terminology. So, do you fellowship or take Bible studies with Christians who are not part of SF but are of different denominations? Do you often do anything with anyone who isn’t part of SF?
You also stated, “I can pray for all who are struggling to understand and make sense of the situation”. Although your prayers and the time you took to contribute to the blog are appreciated, it sounds as if everyone involved understands this situation very well. And to be quite honest, it is a very disturbing situation. Do you have children of your own? How would you feel if you sent your daughter to a local public school and thought she was there learning subject matter only to learn later a person being paid by the taxpayers was using his position as a teacher to turn her against you so that she could become his private nanny. Part of that “free market society” that christianblog talks about. This man has taken advantage of a young, impressionable person. God gives us family as a lifelong relationship and support system. This girl’s has obviously been ripped out from under her. And, from several others on here it sounds like she came from a good family. That’s why I said earlier, I’m not so sure she hasn’t been brainwashed. And although Elf seems to be feeling beaten up by scripture, as Christians we should always stand on the truth of God and His Word. Philippians 2:3 says, “Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.” And James 3:14-18, “But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jeaslousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing, But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy, And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.”
The mission website www.brunstad.org is going public.
Information Regarding an Important Competition in Connection with www.brunstad.org
Dear friends!
The Internet is a natural place for people to search for information, and Kåre J. Smith has set in motion work to make our website, www.brunstad.org, our most important missionary tool. We now want to start a competition that will help information regarding the church and the gospel become easily available for people who are searching.
Purpose of the Competition
· Make it easier for searching people to hear the gospel of God and find information regarding Brunstad Christian Church that can guide them.
· Increase the friends' awareness of the website and the need for new and varied articles, so that the website becomes increasingly more helpful.
· Increase the number of visitors to www.brunstad.org
Competition Goals and Time Perspectives
The goal of this competition is to get the most visitors from your country on www.brunstad.org. It is a joint competition in the sense that each country is one group, but nonetheless, it is important that each church becomes involved and follows up with this competition locally. The youth leader in each church is responsible for getting this competition off the ground and for maintaining the friends' interest and focus on the competition.
Time Perspective: Measurements of number of visitors to the website in each country will start on September 1, 2008 and will end on December 31, 2008.
Competition Rules
In order to have the same conditions for smaller and larger churches/countries, we will calculate the number of people in each country in the same way as for David's Columns. Each country will then be measured according to the percentage increase and total number of vistors compared to church size during the designated time period.
Updated graphs will be sent out on a regular basis so that everyone can follow along with where they are in comparison to other countries. The country with greatest increase of visitors will win the competition!
Suggestions to Increase the Number of Visitors on www.brunstad.org
The suggestions below are meant to bring inspire the churches into becoming creatively involved in this competition on many different levels. We are open to better or more developed ideas!
· Newspaper Announcements
· T-shirts sporting the name of the website or other advertising slogans
· Business Cards
Local Churches can take responsibility for printing business cards for the young people (and aand anyone else who is willing). The cards would have www.brunstad.org written on one side along with follow-up sentence or a question. The cards should be given out based on a personal relationship with people ypu have spoken to, or those who have an interest in our life and faith. The cards are not meant as mass distribution of "advertising."
· Talk to people with love and respect! It may be more beneficial to find the few people who are really interested than to distribute flyers to everyone on your street.
Use www.brunstad.org as your homepage
Bring up www.brunstad.org when talking to authorities or people at school etc. The website is also meant for people who are curious or want general information about the church
Write an article for the website!
Follow along with how your country is doing in the competition and participate yourself! Find ways to increase the interest and enthusiasm in your home church!
Regardless of what suggestions your church decides to implement, it is extremely important to participate with enthusiasm, and a personal commitment and motivation. Begin today!
It is important that the youth leaders/youth workers take responsibility for helping the young people understand what methods they can use to share information about the church and the gospel. Younger youth especially often need a little guidance in this area, so they are not thoughtless or forget what is appropriate in their efforts to share information (ex. Facebook, Piczo, blogs etc.).
The brunstad.org website editing team is working to develop a website where the gospel about freedom from sin can easily reach out to people who have a heavenly calling. However, this website is also intended as a fountain of information, understanding, and edification for our own children and young people who are growing up-in this way it. It is a missionary tool for people in the church and people who are not in the church! Participate by creating enthusiasm, zeal, and understanding in connection with this important task that Jesus has given His disciples. (Matt. 28:18-20)
You know, I would really like to believe that Smith’s Friends is really an honest Christian group. I want to believe that there is not some hidden agenda in this message for the Smith’s Friends official web site. I want to believe that anna_crisn and I can fellowship together as believers in Jesus Christ. But there is too much evidence to the contrary. I am sure that different fellowships around the world have different degrees of enthusiasm, or different emphasis on doctrinal issues. But the words of elf_asura an others are just words and they don’t coincide with the behaviors observed here from this local fellowship. They may have it all straight in India, but this local fellowship is better known for the fear and damage they have caused many people, not for their Christ like behavior.
We have talked endlessly about this girl and her family. And no, Jarsmom, there is still no fellowshipping going on there. But she and her family are not the only victims here. There is at least one more young man who is currently involved with this group. He is so afraid of his parents that he runs away and hides from them when they try to see him. Elf and others can say anything they want but here is a young man who, as a result of his involvement with this fellowship, runs and hides from his parents! What kind of teaching except that which comes from twisting Luke 14 would instill that kind of fear for someone’s parents?
Even if the parents were terrible people, wouldn’t it be Christ like for him to love his parents. He can’t be an influence on them or love them if he is so afraid that he runs and hides when he sees them. And what about his brother, his aunts, uncles, grandparents, old friends. Why can’t he see them? What did they do? If this church was following Christ wouldn’t they try to reach out to these families and make peace? But instead the families are threatened with violence! The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. The opposite of that are things like hate, fear, bitterness, and arrogance. So which is the fruit from this local SF fellowship? The actions speak louder than words.
My meds must be super working cause I have 0 desire anymore to go to salem fellowship - smith's friends church. Smith's friends don't look to be honest to me, from all my 10+ years experience with them. I have fresh smith's friends related blog post --- not me being mean this seriously buisiness I have pondered, I think about this stuffs, I think about how people get to be very evil......I find it's good to figure that out, so I don't go that road ever myself.....
http://givingittogod.blogspot.com/
I stumbled upon a good edifying bible verse for the smith's friends......1 Samuel 12:20 "Do not be afraid," Samuel replied. "You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart."
I think that is what god desire's of the smith's friends, for them to not "away from the lord".......but to "serve the lord with all your heart"
That though they have probably "done all this evil" YET DO NOT TURN AWAY FROM THE LORD.......but serve the LORD with ALL your heart. It's never to late for anybody long as they alive pry to like be saved I recogn.
Turning away from the lord is the worst thing a person could do - DON'T TURN AWAY ----- "you have done all this evil" BUT DON'T TURN AWAY FROM THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!!! ........serve the lord with ALL your heart. That's what we all should do!
It was good to read the recent comments that ANNA_CRLSN left. A refreshing tone from an "insider", especially in comparison with some of the other "insider" remarks that have been left in this thread.
I would say, though, that the vast majority of SFs are really truly only interested in "fellowship" with THOSE IN THEIR OWN GROUP. Under pressure i.e. this thread, some will admit that they would be interested in fellowship with all who are interested in victory over sin.
The reality, though, from their church practices and individual practices is that they are really NOT interested. Unless you come INTO their group, and you are "ALONG" with them in all their beliefs and ideas, they are not interested in you. Even so-called "insiders" who don't quite seem to go along with everything are treated as second class.
And you will rarely/never hear of their various churches collaborating with non-SF churches. You will rarely/never hear of their church members attending conferences and christian gatherings that are hosted by non-SF churches and non-SF organizations
I invite anna_crlsn and any other insiders to write about SPECIFIC fellowship types of interactions that you have had with christians who are not part of the SFs. (apart from you trying to get them to join your group).
I think we are all very grateful
for Annas contribution.
Sophie, you asked for clarification
about victory over sin. I hope you
dont mind if I take a crack at it
to help you understand, and I hope
the other former ones jump in. I would love to hear from SF too but
some times folks get hung up on the
vanacular.
They believe that as belivers we do
not have to give into temptation.
eg we are no longers debtors to
the flesh to obey its lusts and de
sires. The flesh being the old nat
ure. The Holy Spirit helps to
resist this temptation, this is called putting to death sin in the
flesh. The anguish associated with
not giving into this temptaion is
known as suffering in the flesh."suffer in the flesh and be
finished with sin." After sufficient resistance then no longer are you tempted in that area
because you have crucified the flesh. Then it is time to plow through a little more. An example
would be if you have a bad tooth, it hurts until there is a death, the death of the nerve root. Then
there is no more pain. SEE :>
Now yes there is still this uncon
scious sin involved like Anna mentioned, eg falling off your bike
banging your knee and as a result
an explative falls out of your mouth before you have time to really think about it, that is a deed of the body, and unconscious sin, and again as Anna pointed out
we usually get a tap on the shoulder from the Holy Spirit show
ing us where we were wrong.
I hope that helps
jarsmom: No, I don’t mind you taking a crack at it and even thank you for doing so. From what you stated last, I honestly don’t understand how that differs from what other Christians believe or practice. So, why separate?
And how would intentionally damaging another family qualify? Would that qualify as “consciously” choosing to sin or “unconsciously sinning”?
giving it to God: It is good to hear that you are doing so well. John 8:32 says, “Know the truth and the truth will make you free.” And 3 John says, “I have no greater joy than this, than to hear of my children walking in the truth.” When we are focused on Christ and not on a group, or a leader, or another human being, we are free to worship and have a real relationship with Him. We are free to be who He created us to be and share our Christian love with everyone; our friends, our family, people who are lost and searching for an answer, (people who have never heard the Gospel). I’m thankful that you’re free from the bondage of misuse of scripture and religion. And, the verse you posted is very applicable.
yukonbound2: This phrase “victory over sin” has been used several times in this blog, so I asked anna a question and Jarsmom graciously answered it for me. Can you also share your understanding of this phrase and what the Bible has to say on this subject? It is scriptural for us (as Christians) to strive to be more Christ-like in our daily lives. But, if we only associate or socialize with those who “are interested in ‘victory over sin’” are we really fulfilling the great commission that Jesus speaks of? How do people know if they desire to have “victory over sin” if they don’t even realize they are sinners in need of a Savior?
You stated: I would say though, that the vast majority of SFs are really truly only interested in “fellowship” with THOSE IN THEIR OWN GROUP. Under pressure, i.e. this thread, some will admit that they would be interested in fellowship with all who are interested in victory over sin.
The people in this group can “admit” anything that they want to. But in reality, what are they “doing”? Again, actions speak louder than words.
If this really is a healthy, Bible-based, godly, Christian group, then they wouldn’t even think about damaging other people’s relationships with their family members and former friends. Obviously, this isn’t an isolated incident for this group. Wonder how many others there are? Jesus wouldn’t do that, so we as Christians shouldn’t either. Several others claiming to be SF have posted on here saying they grew up in loving homes. Can they give an honest, Biblical defense for this group’s behavior without misusing Luke 14? Would they like it if someone did this to their family?
What about salt and light? 1Timothy 4:16 says: “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.”
For those watching what has happened, it is doubtful that anyone who is a real Christian is saying to themselves, “Oh, wow!! Look at what those people do. I want to be part of that. I’d like to turn people against their families too.” What we do speaks louder than our words. I would venture to say that what one would think is more along the lines of ‘if that is what Christianity is all about, I want no part of it’.
And finally, Matt 5:14-16 says, “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” One word that sticks out is ‘good’. How is damaging families and turning young people against all those who love them ‘good’?
I think jarsmom is cool you are a alright group of people by me.....but something she said awhile ago disturbed me - for reals when people say this it clean disturbs me....."But I dont believe jusus was man only here on earth, the holy spirit gave him 1/2 of his DNA YES?????????"
Jesus was ENTIRELLY A MAN I'll tell you all why, God is 3...... Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." US plural, and I super believe, jesus was the man total human form of god, god is god's form of god totally god : ) and the holy spirit is the holy spirit form of god and they are definately 3 separate uh manifestations of god ---- the holy spirit dna was definately not in jesus, the holy spirit is the holy spirits separate own manifestation of god ---- entirelly separate from the entirelly man jesus christ manifestation of god.......jesus had to be totally man, to be "tempted in all points yet without sin" to be a qualifying sacrifice.
Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" His real real real real real real HUMAN FLESH!!!!!! 1 John 4:2 "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God," In THE FLESH w/0 holy spriit DNA in him!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand though mainstream christians wanting to believe jesus had holy spirit dna ---- your FLESHES want to believe that!!!!!!! Your fleshes want to believe jesus didn't really consecrate a new and living way through the veil that is his flesh! If you believe that then you must accept you must follow him and suffer in the flesh!!!!!! WHO WANTS THAT!!!!!!! Hebrews 2:10
"In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." He was made "perfect through suffering" in his flesh his real real real real real 100% human jesus christ 100% human flesh!!!!! No holy spirit DNA at all!!!!!!
I'd also like to touch upon next thing jarsmom said in that posting awhile ago....."I donot believe Jesus died for his own sim I dont remember being taught that either." I not sure smith's friends believe that but if they do THAT'S RIDICULOUS SMITH'S FRIENDS!!!!!! Jesus was without sin, what he need to die to save himself for????? Nope he was fully man, and he died for our sins! Not his own, our sins.
On a german freidrich greiss website I go to every now and then that has many articles on the smith's friends there's a fresh one that is something else, apparently there was alcohol given to minor's at brunstad, and their liquor license looks to be as been suspended! And article said there were "brawls" at brunstad too. And nother new article said on the weekends brunstad is very noisy and neighbors are complaining much.
But I will not be a smith's friend right now ---- I'm still plenty friendless, had no luck dragon boating making friends or very little, pretty dang friendless I am, but I will not support no using of the "free market society" w/a construction buisiness at the smith's friends church near me ----- I will not support that ----- you could be the body of christ smith's friends I will not support that evil buisiness that extremely much looks to be much going on!!!!!! I'll go many more years without friends, and disputing w/you all that jesus is entirelly a man w/0 angel flesh, 0 holy spirit dna!!! Zac poonen calls it a heresy that smith's friends believe jesus had a entire flesh like ours was a man walking on the earth ----- IT IS NOT NO HERESY IT IS GOD'S WORD JESUS HAD A FULL FLESH LIKE US HE WAS A MAN A MAN IN THE FLESH 0 HOLY SPIRIT OR ANGEL DNA ANGEL WHATEVER ABOUT HIM
Jesus would be a cheap cinzy rip off christ in my opinion if he somehow cheated having holy spirit dna, or angel flesh - I'd feel ripped off then and wouldn't want to try to crucify my flesh to it's lusts and desires then if jesus was a cheap and cinzy christ. Jesus thankfully wasn't cheap or cinzy.
here's link to webpage w/brunstad drunken underage drinking kids and brawls article............
You have to translate the webpage to be able to read it from german to your language........http://griess.st1.at/sf.htm
Just hit "translate webpage" on google that should lead you to a website where you should be able to find place to paste in http://griess.st1.at/sf.htm and then hit button that says "translate" and the entire webpage should be translated ------- that's how it works out for me here in america anyways. Scroll down when you get there to the "new" posts, it's the "new" posts that I made mention of.
I appreciate jarsmom sharing her definition of “victory over sin”. I expect that this must be typical of Smith’s Friends fellowships. It sounds like Sophie and maybe Keith wouldn’t disagree if I said that this is fundamentally the same goal of all Christian churches, even those of us in “harlot churches”. We all are striving to do better at being more like Christ and growing in our walk with the Lord. Some people are a little further down the road than others. I think the SF crowd would agree with that too.
Giving it to God: I don’t know where you learned that mainstream Christians believe Jesus was not human here on earth. I think most mainstream churches believe that Jesus was 100% human and born to a virgin. I don’t pretend to know whose DNA He had and how God did it but He did. I believe that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God too, at the same time. The idea of Holy Spirit DNA is not something I have ever heard before. This mainstream Christian believes 1Ti 3:16 “He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory”.
It is an interesting discussion to have about what it must have been like for Mary to raise God’s Son, or to grow up with a big brother who was God. But those are just our opinions and not Biblical. The idea that He “put His finger in the pudding”, to me, degrades the deity of Christ. But I do at the same time believe Jesus had a sense of humor; again just my opinion.
But we do, as Christians, still have the obligation to confront and rebuke some churches. The Tulsa paper has recently run some articles worth noting. It involves a church in Arkansas called the Tony Alamo Christian Church. According to the Tulsa paper, Tony Alamo was arrested in 1994 and spent 4 years in federal prison for evading $7.9 million in taxes. His headquarters were raided on Saturday in connection with polygamy and child pornography.
So just because a church calls itself Christian doesn’t make it so. The Bible warns us to test the spirits, to examine the fruits of these churches in order to determine their origin so that we may know truth from lies.
One of the ways that we test the spirits is to learn from history and compare what we learn from the past and apply it to what we experience today. That is why it is important to study the history of groups like The People’s Temple, The Branch Davidians, Hitler, Joseph Smith, and others. It is important to learn about the behaviors in those groups so that we can recognize those behaviors when we see them in groups today and not be deceived by them.
One more thing about the last postings from Giving it to God. I read the articles about the drunken brawl at Brunstad and I don’t think you are being fair to the Smith’s Friends organization. My first impression from your post was that it was the SF people who were drunk and brawling and that’s not true. It was another group that they leased their facility to that was causing disturbances, not the SF people.
But I do have to ask the question, what is a “Godly” Christian church doing selling alcohol on their premises at all? Not to mention the practice of leasing their facility and using church volunteers to operate a profitable business venture. That “free market society” as Giving it to God says. It reminds me of Jesus going into the Temple and driving out the money changers.
John 2:14-16. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"
I don't buy at all that most mainstream christians believe jesus has a actual flesh ------- saying he has some holy spirit dna, or even entertaining that idea is not the same as fervently believing jesus came in the FLESH!!!!!!!! And if you all believed that jesus came in the flesh, then the new and living way jesus paved through the veil that is his flesh would be so much more important to you all - not something talked about maybe 1 time a year or so ------- as I see it being talked about in mainstream christianity. I'm listening to brusntad mp3 right now ------ brother kare said I need to press in, not hold onto anything of the world, have a wall of fire and zeal for god's word all around me ------ then god will hear my case, then He will do something for me.........ya I think brother kare is right. Might be going to salem fellowship big work weekend it is this weekend.
Well, terrific, I was blogging away
and I lost every thing. SF believes
Jesus was only a man while on the
earth, ie the likeness of sinful
flesh. They believe he had, I guess,
original sin although he never
comitted sin. Every time a temp-
tation arouse he did not give in
and thereby made a way through the
flesh. This is how with the help
of the holy spirit we make our
way through the flesh.
Giving it to God. I understand the teaching very well about Christ
manifest in the flesh. It says he
came in the likeness of sinful flesh not he was sinful flesh. Look
up likeness in Strongs esp where
eph 2 is concerned. I truly believe in the trinity. I believe
Jesus was born of a Virgin.
Now, to the DNA thing, what i was
getting at was that the bible says
Mary was overshadowed by the Spirit
of God. 2 Humans did not contribute
to his genome. As you all know human DNA contains 46 chromosones.
Excepct for the reproductive ones, they contain 23, which is RNA, they
combine to make 46, so i was wonder
ing where did the other chromosones
come from? just curious.
Well, I guess I better post this
before I lose it again.
Jarsmom: Great post! Thank you again for your contribution.
Christian Blog: Even if you believe SF theology, why would you be interested in being part of a “church” who you know is taking advantage of people (including you), selling liquor, making use of the “free market society”, and damaging other families for their own gain and apparently sees nothing wrong with it? I have never in all of my life heard of ANY Bible-based, God-honoring, Christ-like, loving, church doing ANY of those things. Selling liquor is just one more thing to add to SF list of behaviors that doesn’t line up with The Holy Scriptures.
Have you attended many “mainstream” Christian churches regularly in the past years? Do you ever watch “mainstream” Christian televised programs (like Charles Stanley, James Dobson, James Kennedy, Billy Graham)? And do you take Bible studies (from people like Kay Arthur, Beth Moore, or Bible Study Fellowships (BSF) at “mainstream” Christian churches? I don’t know what church you’re referring to (that doesn’t teach that Jesus was human). But, I would highly recommend that you and your husband visit many churches. You can also make an appointment to visit with the pastor(s) of a church to find out exactly what they believe or teach in their congregation. Find a local Christian bookstore and ask them about churches in your area. Or you could call Focus On The Family, a Christian organization based in Colorado. Maybe they could answer what “mainstream” Christians teach or even refer you to a church in your area.
I am a “mainstream” Christian, grew up going to church, and have visited many churches from different denominations over the years. I have NEVER in all my life heard any “mainstream” preacher say that Jesus wasn’t in the flesh.
It was an immaculate conception. His mother, Mary, was a virgin and His Father, was God. (Matt.1:18, Luke 1:34-35) So He was God in the flesh, (John 1:1-5) perfect, yet walking, talking, breathing, eating, drinking, and sleeping like all other humans. Because He was in the flesh, He was tempted (like we are), but because He was God, He had the power to overcome that temptation so He never sinned (Heb.4:15). He was and is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (Romans 5, John 3:16), and the perfect example for us to follow. In the Old Testament, God required a “sacrifice” for the sins of the people. They had to offer their best. God knew their heart (Prov.15-8, Acts 7:40-42, Genesis 22) just as He knows our heart. It was a matter of sacrifice (giving up something of importance). Jesus gave up His royal position in Heaven to come down to earth as the One and Only Perfect Son of God (Jesus Christ)(John 3:13). Because He was in the flesh, He felt all the same human pain and suffering that we do. He was tortured, ridiculed, mocked, and scorned (Matt.26-28, Mark 14-16, Luke 18-24). He had human feelings and emotions, but still never sinned because He is God. (Heb.4:15) But, God loves us so much that He decided rather than us offering up sacrifices for our sins, He would be that sacrifice in the fleshly form of His Son (John 3:16-21, Rom.3:21-31). Our part is to “accept Jesus” as that sacrifice from Him. It is His gift. A gift is not something earned or that you have to work for. (Eph.2:8-9) It is given to you by someone because they “love” you. You just have to accept it. The way I understand it, when we accept Jesus into our lives, we are then filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38, 1 Thes.4:8, Eph.1:13, John 3:34-36)) That is Jesus (not in the fleshly form) but part of the Holy Trinity – the Spirit that is able to abide in us. It is this Holy Spirit that convicts us of our behavior (whether we’re sinning or doing what glorifies God) (Matt.7:12-21) There are the three in one: God, (the Father), God, (the Son), and God, (the Holy Spirit), aka the Holy Trinity.
I’m not a scientist but I am a Christian. I’m pretty sure that the Bible doesn’t address the DNA of the Holy Spirit. God is God and He can and will do whatever He desires so we are to “trust and obey”. There are certain things that require faith. I believe this issue is one of them.
Read 1 Thes.4:10-12 SF must have those verses cut out of their Bibles because they certainly don’t seem to attend their own business or behave properly toward outsiders.
I have been trying to understand the language barrier between ‘Giving it to god’ and the rest of us. When she says that Jesus had to be “in the flesh”, I understand that to mean He was a real person. He had a real 100% human body. He breathed, ate, drank, just like all of us. I think that Sophie, and most “mainstream” Christians believe that.
I am beginning to believe that isn’t what she means. I think she means that Jesus was ONLY human and not God at all. He was human just like all of us and because He was able to obtain perfection, he then became a God. And the only way for us to enter Heaven is for us to become perfect like Jesus was, to break “through the veil”.
If I understand the logic there it would be that, if Jesus was God too, at the same time, then His perfection isn’t obtainable by ordinary humans like us. It’s kind of like if Jesus was God when He walked on this earth then it would be easy for Him to be perfect, so it wouldn’t mean as much. Now if He was only human and was able to be perfect then that means a lot more because that means we also can be perfect enough to be like God.
Am I on the right track here, or not?
Harold, you are on the right track.
Sigurd Bratlie, former leader of the SFs who is now deceased, wrote in his book that "God became man, and man became God." (Bride and the Harlot).
Harold - You're almost on target with regard to GivingittoGod's interpretation. But to be more precise, you would have to put it this way:
Jesus was raised from the dead because he was the first human being (and not because he was God) who walked in perfect obedience to the Spirit whereby He was born without ever slipping up.
Your assumption is correct: If He overcame temptation as God, then there is no way human beings can follow Him.
But now human beings have access by Him to the very same Spirit by which He overcame sin as a human being.
If human beings obey the Spirit as Jesus did in his days on earth in the flesh, then there will be no cause for sinning and one can reach the same perfection Jesus reached while on earth. This perfection of being able to overcome every temptation is what Jesus wants His disciples to enter into and for which He is able to help them.
This is why Jesus called Himself both the Door and the Way.
From THE GOSPEL OF GOD by Sigurd Bratlie, 1992, Hidden Treasure Literature, Winnipeg, Canada.
Since Harold has initiated a theological discussion, it will not be out of place to quote shortly from the above book for the edification of those who are seeking to understand the SF and its belief system.
""Romans 1:1-4
What does it mean that He was descended from David according to the flesh? Quite simply, it means what it says. We know about David and his seed. Paul was of the same lineage. Hebrews 2:16. Paul says concerning himself: For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. Romans 7:18. And Jesus' flesh was just like that ...
So the question arises: When he came to earth in that body which was of the seed of David, did he come with all the fulness of God in His Spirit? The answer is NO, because it is written Philippians 2:6-8. We often hear it said "He was true God and true man". But this is not true if you mean that He retained all God's fulness when he came to earth in the body that was of the seed of David. Nor is this statement appropriate in light of Hebrews 12:2.."Looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of
our faith".
God had to send His Son in the flesh in which lust dwells, in order to condemn lust in the flesh; and Jesus put this lust to
death in the flesh. That is why it is written "in the likeness of sinful flesh". In us the lusts have been actively at work; thus our flesh has become sinful. We read that "through dath he might destroy him who had the power of deth, that is, the devil." The
death mentioned here is death to the lusts in the flesh. And because He had put the lusts in the flesh to death- He did not
commit sin - therefore, death could not hold him. The resurrection from the dead proved that he was God's Son. Romans
1:3-4""
I hope this helps you out, Harold.
Ya you got that right harold that's on the money ----- if he was like angel flesh or holy spirit dna's somehow not like us w/full out nothing good dwelling in his flesh totally being tempted in all points yet without sin - some junks in his flesh cause it was a real flesh....if he wasn't entirelly like us he just wouldn't of been able to fully of paved a way through the veil that is his flesh.....I agree w/this buisiness (and jesus wasn't highly ummm exalted above everyone til after he finished it! He finished it and then he was exalted above like everyone : ).........
"I am beginning to believe that isn’t what she means. I think she means that Jesus was ONLY human and not God at all. He was human just like all of us and because He was able to obtain perfection, he then became a God. And the only way for us to enter Heaven is for us to become perfect like Jesus was, to break “through the veil”.
If I understand the logic there it would be that, if Jesus was God too, at the same time, then His perfection isn’t obtainable by ordinary humans like us. It’s kind of like if Jesus was God when He walked on this earth then it would be easy for Him to be perfect, so it wouldn’t mean as much. Now if He was only human and was able to be perfect then that means a lot more because that means we also can be perfect enough to be like God.
Am I on the right track here, or not?"
yep on the right track for 100% sure!
as you can see Harold you are on
the right track. It is very difficult to sort out the vanacular
It is about the same as what you
are used to, but the meanings are
a little different. As you all can
see SF teaches that Jesus was only
a man while here on earth.
To be honest I dont know about DNA I doknow that Jesus was concevied
by a virgin, how the rest happened
is conjecture. How does a virgin
concieve???? I dont know.
How does God manifest himself in
flesh and blood??? I dont know, he
did it when he appeared to Abram
on the plane of Mamre, Do those
visitors compare in any way to Jesus??? I dont know. How does God, even though he is in human form, stop being God???
Jesus believed he was God. "Before
Abraham was I Am" With that state
ment he was claiming to be God. Or
how about when the crippled fellow
freinds lowered him through the celing, Jesus said to him " Which
is eaiser? To say your sins are
forgiven or to say to you take up
your mat and walk" Why did the de-
moniac say "Are you here to torment
us before our time"?? How could Je
sus atone for the sins of the world
if he had original sin????? I do
believe that somehow Jesus was able
to Id with the human condition to
the point he was tempted as we were
but without sin. These things lead
me to believe that Jesus certianly
believed in his own deity. I could
go on but I realize that the non SF
bloggers are probably well aware of
all of this and The SF bloggers be-
lieve what they believe. I do think it is good to stop and eval
uate why we believe what we belive.
If not then it is only hollow ret
orick and our faith will fail us
when we need it the most. NOt only
do we need to study the scriptures,
we need to have a personal and on
going relationship with Jesus built
on what we read and vice-versa. To
me Jesus and his divinity is a para
mount issue. He is the same yester
day today and tomorrow.
I believe we dont have to give into
sin. I believe Jesus was a sacrifice for our sin but I also
believe that because of him we are
free from the power of sin. So any
way there you have it. Have a good
one folks
Harold, Zac Poonen directly questioned Sigurd Bratlie about this subject. Specifically, if Christ was only man while on the earth, then how could he be worshipped?
http://griess.st1.at/poonen.htm
"(1) That Christ was NOT God when He was on earth.
In Bratlie's book, The Bride And The Harlot (U.S.edition of March 1977, Page 89, last paragraph), he states concerning Jesus: "God became man and man became God". (When the Smith's Friends were printing this book in India, I requested the Christian printer to delete this blasphemous sentence from the book. This sentence is therefore not found in their Indian edition of the book ).
The teaching that man became God is the teaching of some cults. Bratlie told me plainly that he believed that Jesus, when He came to earth, was NOT God, but ONLY a man. When I asked Bratlie how Jesus could then have accepted worship on earth - as recorded seven times in the gospels - if He were only a man, Bratlie expressed surprise that the gospels actually stated that. I showed him the verses, but he would not change his position. This means that if any of the Smith's Friends had met Christ when He was on earth, they would NOT have worshipped Him, as the apostles did, but only shaken His hand - since it is a sin to worship a man!! Jesus Christ was God when He was on earth, for God can never cease to be God. Yet He was also a Man - who did not do His own will but humbly submitted to the Father's will in everything (John 6:38; Phil.2:7)."
on the was jesus a man or god while on this earth debate going on ------ I fully side w/the smith's friends jesus was a man on earth.......he was the fully man part of the trinity......he could've taken on some god something something but he humbled himself and became in the fashion of a man totally totally totally a man. (so there was some magic god priviledges he could've gotten but he totally put those off) It's possible for christ to come to this earth and fully put off his godness ------ bible itself says....."all things are possible to he that believes" He knew he had a mission - he had to pave a way for us to go and it had to be through his flesh his real real real human very extremely for reals not just make believe for reals tempted in all points yet without sin super real flesh. He put off his godness ---- jesus was a man on this earth!!!!!!! I side w/the smith's friends on this, so does my husband, fact me and my husband we still like brunstad, and india, and I'd add australia I am particularly fond of the smith's friends in australia. Me and my husband just don't think that the "free market society" should be taken advantage of by a brother owned construction company "macleay solutions" as is going on at the smith's friends church near me. Me and my husband aren't for right now salem fellowship the smith's friends church near me ------ if they stop this "free market society" buisiness as it is looking they to much be doing w/this construction buisiness then I return to salem fellowship til then I'm on strike!!!!!!! While listening to brunstad mp3's : ) so my strike is going ok : ) ------- jesus was a man on this earth. (as I pointed out, he wasn't highly exalted above all names until after he finished it at the cross......clean went through the veil that was his flesh and said "it is finished") Brother Bratlie wasn't wrong!!!!!!! I guess that makes me a smith's friend shhhhhhhhh : )
If anyone can point me to a copy of the book mentioned in the post on Zac Poonen that was deleted, I would be grateful. I belong to the Brethren and am researching this topic. That post gave some very valuable information. Information is precious; hold on to it. Here it is again with some corrections:
Some information on Zac Poonen whom YukonBound has quoted:
1. Zac Poonen was for a very long time an active Smith's Friend and the key leader in India. Zac Poonen has had a colorful journey through various denominations and groups until he founded once and for all his own independent church - THE CHRISTIAN FELLOWSHIP CHURCH, Bangalore.
2. Here is the dedication he made to Sigurd Bratlie in his book titled "Radiating His Glory" in which he acknowledges publicly his agreement with the SF and puts the SF teaching as correct in the context of other great Christian teachers like Andrew Murray, Norman Grubb, etc:
TO
SIGURD BRATLIE
A true father in Christ
and a faithful servant of God,
who has radiated the glory of Christ more than any other man I have known.
3. Excerpt from Page 6 of an original copy of the book which is hard to find now:
If Christ did not come in our flesh, He couid not be our Example. Neither could He command us, 'Follow Me' for we obviously could not follow One Who did not have our fleshy limitations, even as an angel could not teach us to swim, not himself experiencing the pull of gravity. Then Paul's exhortation in 1 Corinthians 11:1, to follow him as he followed Christ would also become meaningless, for Paul could not possibly have walked as Jesus walked. Then the life of Christ becomes a life that we can only admire, but never follow.
4. Excerpt from Page 19 of the same book:
Jesus endured every temptation that can ever come to any man, and He faced temptation as we have to face it. He was tempted IN EVERY POINT, AS WE ARE. This is the plain and unmistakable teaching of Hebrews 4: 15. And this is our encouragement. Jesus exercised no power that is not offered us by God
today. He met and overcame temptation, as a man, in the strength given Him by His Father through the Holy Spirit...And if Jesus lived that perfect life, without the weakness of our flesh or with power unavailable to us, then His life is no example to us and no encouragement to us ...
5. Excerpt from Page 20 of the book:
In all those situations (of temptations), He denied Himself and mortified the desires of the flesh that tempted Him to sin. Thus He consistently "suffered in the flesh".
6. Excerpt from Page 27:
We have seen that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. Some of our strongest temptations are those which come to attack our thought-life. So too it must have been with Jesus.
7. Excerpt from Page 95, at the very end of the book:
(For a fuller study of Babylon and Jerusalem, I would encourage everyone to read Sigurd Bratlie's book, The Bride and the Harlot-- available from the publishers of this book).
This was and remains Zac Poonen's doctrine even though he no longer fellowships with SF.
shadowfax: I am leaving your comment up for the moment, but I find it interesting that you DO NOT allow open comments on your blog while you are afforded that privilege here.
If you are indeed doing "research," I would imagine some of that same research might find its way to your blog. Why not let the rest of us read your findings/comments since you have been granted that courtesy here?
http://griess.st1.at/poonen.htm
We circle around, yet again, to Poonen's article. I challenge any current SF to definitively refute any of his points written there (Elf_asura tried to this, and was unsuccessful, in the past).
I am by no means a Zac Poonen apologist (I understand and relate to some of the concerns expressed about him and his ministry - by those in groups other than the SFs).
However, I do believe that article that I previously referenced was mostly accurate - at the time of its writing in 1997.
Zac Poonen wrote further in that same article that once he came to know all that the SFs taught and believed, that he broke connections with them. He also wrote further that their teachings seemed to shift over time, and it wasn't a simple matter to ascertain all that they learned.
Quote: "But once we fully understood what they taught and stood for (in 1989), they were never permitted to visit any of our churches thereafter."
Quote: "The Smith's Friends have no written statement of faith. So it is very difficult to know what they really believe. There has also been quite a bit of variation in what their leaders have taught through the years. Because of this variation, and because of their lack of straightforwardness in acknowledging openly what they believe, it was initially difficult for us to know what they really believed."
There is much that the SFs teach that is RIGHT and TRUE and helpful, but these questions remain:
1. Was Jesus God while here on earth? The SFs have traditionally taught NO.
2. Why are they so exclusive?
3. Why are they so quick to bash other christians?
4. Why do they teach that other christians are part of the "harlot"?
5. Why do the norwegians have to be in charge of everything and the main speakers at all events?
6. Did Jesus commit unconscious sin?
7. Did Jesus die for His own (unconscious) sin?
I do not consider Elf-Asura to be a credible or reliable representative of the SFs regarding what they teach and believe, so any future replies from him will be greatly discounted. Perhaps heather or anna_crlsn or uriah_heep or some other more reasonable SF would be able to respond.
Thanks for all of the comments. It seems that this is where we have our differences. And I appreciate the fact that the SF people have actually admitted what they believe. They talked around it for a long time now but resisted actually saying it.
I do have a couple of questions for Uriah_Heep.
1. Have you achieved “victory over sin”? Have you have become perfect enough to be like God?
2. How many people have reached the same perfection that Jesus did while on this earth? If it is possible for you and me, then there should be at least one other person who has become God like Jesus did in the last 2,000 years. Please name at least one.
3. At what point did Jesus earn His God status?
Because in John 4, Jesus told the woman at the well, point blank, that He was the Christ (a.k.a. GOD). He didn't say He had been God. He didn't say He was going to become God. He claimed to BE GOD.
In John 10:22-39 the Jews tried to stone Him saying v33 "We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God".
Jesus answered them v37,38 "Do not believe Me unless I do what My Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe Me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me and I in the Father."
4. Do you deny that Mary was a virgin?
The angel Gabriel said to Mary "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35. He was born the Son of God. He had no human father.
The whole reason that the Jews had Him crucified was that He claimed to be God.
Colossians 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..."
To deny that Jesus was God in a human body is to call Jesus a liar. He is either, who He said He was, or He is a liar. The scriptures don’t leave room for any other options. And if He is a liar then He is not worthy of our worship or even an example to follow.
But here's the deal, I believe you are wrong, however, I would never turn my back on you and say you are going to hell. That's between you and God. He knows your heart, not me.
I would not, as a teacher in your public school, use my classroom and influence to undermine your parental authority and surreptitiously introduce my religion to your child. And I would never move your child into my home against your wishes and teach her to deceive you and hate you because of your belief. That is immoral and unethical and I don't care how old she is. This is a moral issue, not a legal one.
I will debate you all day long on the subject of Jesus Christ but at the end of the day it is God's commandment that I love you as my neighbor. That means that I respect you, your family, and your relationship with your children.
This local fellowship has done nothing but show disrespect for the families involved here and anyone else who dares to ask any questions. It is not their theology that has exposed them because they say all the right words. Smith’s Friends has just defined a different meaning to them so as to “deceive even the elect”. No, it is their behavior that does not line up with the word of God. That is what defines them and determines our opinion of Smith’s Friends.
Harold
You're obviously interpreting the various posts, juxtaposing, extrapolating, making assumptions and conclusions. Watch the process within yourself!
I choose to be just a "watcher" who made some interjections in a discursive process. Theologically, I am "neutral" and "listening". I appreciate the fact that you are unwilling to consign anyone to hell.
On the school issue, although I sense your rancour, I would say "the Gospel is not bound". It is not easy to both believe the Gospel and obey the secular rules that "bind" it. The choice to obey the secular "beast" or preach the Gospel in season or out of season is left to the individual preacher if he/she spreads the Gospel in the spirit of Christ.
On the issue of family being hurt, I do not know the whole story so I cannot comment. We do not have the SF version of events on this blog, after all. Nor do we have the girl's version! There are many sides to this issue and I am unwilling to judge without knowing the various sides. In any case, the issue must be resolved at the local level in a spirit of peace and reconciliation as the Lord commands. Blessed are the peace-makers.
On the matter of the "deity" of Christ, I think the arguments here are more about different emphases. Some give more emphasis to "deity" and others more emphasis to "humanity". Both are necessary. I do not believe that anyone has a perfect balance since everyone has only partial understanding (through a glass darkly) and all are in a process of sanctification and growth into Christ's likeness. However, I would say that if one does not see things as black or white but as being "in process", things would be much clearer and peace within and without much closer.
God bless you as you struggle with a situation that does not seem to have any "perfect" solution!!!
Harold - The questions you asked. The answers lie in this creed which I affirm. I hope you acknowledge this creed too!
THE NICENE CREED
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
YukonBound said: "The Smith's Friends have no written statement of faith. So it is very difficult to know what they really believe. There has also been quite a bit of variation in what their leaders have taught through the years. Because of this variation, and because of their lack of straightforwardness in acknowledging openly what they believe, it was initially difficult for us to know what they really believed."
The Faith Statement of the Smith's Friends is written in black and white and loud and clear on the site www.brunstad.org. Here is the entire statement:
DOCTRINE
Brunstad Christian Church is an evangelical non-denominational church that has its foundation in the New Testament and believes in the Bible as God’s word.
Outside of this foundation, we have no doctrine, no conditions or requirements and no partiality in our treatment of persons. Faith in Jesus as God’s Son, and faith in the Holy Spirit, the forgiveness of sins, baptism and the Lord’s Supper are the fundamental elements of our faith.
How are we different from other Christian evangelical non-denominational churches?
We believe that Jesus not only died to bring us forgiveness of our sins, but that He was also tempted to sin just like every human being. The difference is that despite being tempted, Jesus did not commit a single sin! When we follow in Jesus’ footsteps, it is also possible for us to live a life of victory over sin. In this way we can be conformed to His image.
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Rom. 8:29
THEOLOGY
We place great importance on living our life in accordance to God’s word and using the Bible as a guideline for our life and doctrine. We believe in the Almighty God, in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Spirit.
We believe that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, that He was born of the Virgin Mary, and that He rose from the dead on the third day, as it says in the Bible.
Our belief that Jesus was tempted in all points just as we are, yet without sin, is a central theme in our teachings. That is why Jesus’ life, temptations, battles, and triumphs are of great interest and value to us.
We have no books that are comparable to the Bible. The Bible is the only basis for our faith. However, faithful Christian men and women through the years have written much that is good and rich from their life, experiences and understanding of the gospel. Many of these writings have been published in books, pamphlets, and song books. The purpose of these writings is that God’s word can be understood, believed, and carried out in our daily lives. Outside of what the Bible teaches, we have no commandments or rules as to how one should live. However, we do have God-fearing men and women who have gone before us, and their lives are an example and a help for us.
FORGIVENESS OF SIN AND VICTORY OVER SIN
What hope is there for us who have sinned? We believe that all people can receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, without having a single good deed to show for themselves, when they believe in Jesus and that He died for us on the cross.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” Eph. 2:8.
The forgiveness of sins is not the ultimate goal for a Christian; rather, it is the beginning of a new life. When we repent from our sins and come to faith in God’s word, we are “born” into a new life with new interests and a desire to do God’s will. With God’s help it is possible to be Jesus’ disciple and follow after Him, as is written in God’s word.
We believe that Jesus was tempted just as we are, but that He never sinned. Instead He overcame in every temptation through the power of the Holy Spirit. Heb.4:15-16.
Therefore, we believe that we also are tempted to do what is wrong in God’s eyes, but that we can get power to say no to our own will and get victory over these temptations. Rom. 6:1-2. We believe that in this way, we can overcome all conscious sin and come to a spiritual growth and development in all that is good, just as is written in the Bible.
SANCTIFICATION
We believe that the Holy Spirit will bring all things to our remembrance and guide us on our journey as disciples of Jesus Christ. When we are obedient to the Holy Spirit, an inner transformation takes place in us.
In the light that comes from God’s word and the Holy Spirit, we see more and more of our own nature and those aspects of our own will which strive against God’s will. When we agree with God about what we see in our nature, a cleansing of the sin within us can take place by the Holy Spirit. Life becomes a journey of increasing acknowledgement and cleansing, from light to light. This inner transformation is what the Bible calls sanctification.
THE CHURCH - THE BODY OF CHRIST
We believe that the spiritual fellowship, which develops in the light that comes from God’s word, is “the church,” or “the body of Christ” as it is also called in the Bible.
Everyone who lives a life that is “crucified with Christ” is a member of this body – regardless of time or place, culture or traditions, and regardless of affiliation or association to Brunstad Christian Church.
Bible References:
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” Gal. 2:20.
“And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.” 1Cor. 26-27
“And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” Gal. 5:24
“But speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head – Christ – from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.” Ephes. 4:15-16
BAPTISM
We practice the baptism of faith, or adult baptism. Baptism is “the answer of a good conscience toward God.” (1 Pet. 3:21)
Baptism does not cleanse away sin, but through baptism we make a declaration of our desire to live a new life. We make a covenant with God that we will no longer live for ourselves according to our own will, but will live for God and do His will.
“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” Rom. 6:3-4
Little children do not have an “old life” that they can consciously decide to “put off” by being baptized. They also are unable to consciously make a covenant with God or have the “answer of a good conscience”. Therefore we do not baptize small children. Instead, small children are blessed and prayed for, just as Jesus blessed the little children.
“But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid His hands on them and departed from there.” Matt. 19:14-15.
COMMUNION
Communion is scheduled from time to time in the local churches as a time of remembrance of Jesus.
Communion is a time of self-examination, when we reflect on the great work of salvation that Jesus completed for us and also on the work that He desires to complete in us.
“The Lord Jesus…took bread; and when he had given thanks, He broke it and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.’ In this same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till he comes.” 1 Cor. 11:23-26.
Communion, or “The Lord’s Supper,” is a testimony of our everyday life. It shows that we are partakers in the same death as Jesus, a death over the sin that dwells in us. When one loaf of bread is shared among all, this is symbolic of the body of Christ and that we are all members of one and the same body.
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.” 1 Cor. 10:16-17.
SPIRITUAL GIFTS
We believe in and seek the spiritual gifts that God can give us, in order to edify and help one another in every way.
We all have different spiritual gifts such as evangelizing, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, the ability to carry out practical jobs and tasks, caring for others, etc. Every one of us can use these gifts with boldness and care to bring help and support wherever there are needs.
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free – and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:4-13.
Shadowfax, thanks for the excerpts from the brunstad website.
The "quotes" that I posted were excerpts from Poonen's article on the SFS, which was written in 1997. In 1997, and prior to that, I don't believe that there was any clearly written statement of faith - as there now appears to be (which you have posted for us from brunstad's website).
Hence Poonen's point - in 1997 and prior - about it not being so simple to ascertain FULLY what they believed.
I would also add that in the written statement of faith that brunstad has posted, there are some items there which are questionable based on my experience. It's one thing to SAY the right words, quite another to live them out as a person/church group.
Yelena smith's friends sister gave me this link.....
http://egov.sos.state.or.us/br/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detl?p_be_rsn=1151301&p_srce=BR_INQ&p_print=FALSE
to prove the legitamacy of the construction site I've been extremely suspious about "macleay solutions" I am not sure or convinced they were always so very not making use of the "free market society" w/macleay solutions since I heard the words "free market society" from both yelena and the youth pastor AND over buisiness I saw/read on their private password protected site for their church. But they have convinced me they are legit now........so my protest is over for now -------- though officially I still think I am unfairly shunned and disincluded from like geez everything - just cause I don't go to like much rental cooking or like well none no more cause I was like harrassed to much ----- shouldn't make me any the less of a sister. Who would want to go to do something they've been treated badly at several times - nobody not me not nobody ----- course I don't want to rental cook no more. Only safe bet for me would to be serving coffee - if there's ever a coffee opening I might look into it - til then........have fun slaving in the kitchen -------- you should be nice to me anyways smith's friends! ---- I might go to salem fellowship this weekend ---- it's the drive I have to work myself up for the most geez it's a long drive for me ----- it's been hard on me going this long away from the church/uh hub of my faith ------ but even if they were always legal w/macleay solutions even in that event I had something real I was really protesting ----- being ignored left out, made to feel like I was not good enough ----- something less.
I might very well tell them I ain't going to rental cook clean go up in front the church and say "hey I've had many bad experiences rental cooking" it's not fair to refuse to fellowship w/me cause I don't want to rental cook cause I've had some severely bad instances rental cooking. Cause it's not fair! NO WAY!
It's a rather hopeless situation I feel I feel I'll never be included into the church, I feel hopeless about that situation utterely.
I ain't less of a sister though it's just not true!!!!!!!!!!
Uriah Heep: On October 1, you stated: “We do not have the SF version of events on this blog, after all. Nor do we have the girl's version!”
By the omitting the mention of the girl’s family’s version, one might assume you’re implying that we have their version. Is that a correct assumption? It would be rather interesting to hear their version as well. It would also be interesting to hear from all her former friends. After all, what has been posted on here are probably just fragmentary details of this bizarre story.
“On the school issue, although I sense your rancour, I would say "the Gospel is not bound". It is not easy to both believe the Gospel and obey the secular rules that "bind" it. The choice to obey the secular "beast" or preach the Gospel in season or out of season is left to the individual preacher if he/she spreads the Gospel in the spirit of Christ.
Sorry, but in America, it is NOT a choice of the individual preacher whether or not he/she spreads the Gospel in a PUBLIC school classroom. In America, we have a Constitution and a code of ethics. There are certain things that one MUST obey whether they want to or not. If you agree to “teach” in the public school system, you are teaching students who come from many different denominations and even different faiths. Your job (duty) is to teach subject matter, i.e. languages, math, science, history, art, etc. Your duty is NOT to introduce your religion in a classroom to unsuspecting, young, naive, and captive, targets. If the students in your class are looking for a “different path”, they can attend different churches on their own time. The PUBLIC schools here in America are for ALL students to attend without being indoctrinated into various religions. If it is so difficult to believe the Gospel and also obey the secular rules that “bind” it, then perhaps one should find a job other than teaching in the PUBLIC schools.
“On the matter of the "deity" of Christ, I think the arguments here are more about different emphases. Some give more emphasis to "deity" and others more emphasis to "humanity".
This is just one more reason why The Bible should NEVER be part of a public school classroom. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, and those of the Jewish faith, etc. all have their own belief system and all send their children to public schools. Christians believe that Jesus is God and that God is Jesus, plain and simple. If SF put more emphasis on humanity, that is their business, but the PUBLIC school classroom is NOT the place to push your agenda. Christian students shouldn’t be forced to listen to that in a classroom.
And, on the Banned Blog, it was stated: “ATTACKS ON SMITH'S FRIENDS
This blog is inspired by the goings-on at http://fivepts.blogspot.com/2006/08/is-this-cult.html the objective of which has especially been to attack and denigrate the so-called Smith's Friends, a non-denominational and evangelical Christian church (http://www.brunstad.org) as a cult.”
I’ve been following this entire thread. Many people have posted, made observations, and stated facts concerning things they’ve experienced first hand.
Many have asked questions from what they’ve witnessed or gleaned from this blog. Why do you call these “attacks”?
You also stated to Harold: You're obviously interpreting the various posts, juxtaposing, extrapolating, making assumptions and conclusions.
In case you haven’t noticed, most people on here including SF are doing the same. Why single Harold out? Are you “attacking” him?
Yukonbound2: You stated: I would also add that in the written statement of faith that brunstad has posted, there are some items there which are questionable based on my experience. It's one thing to SAY the right words, quite another to live them out as a person/church group.
I totally agree with you. I’ve said it before and I”ll say it again, I can say anything I want like, “I’m beautiful, skinny, and smart,” but that doesn’t necessarily make it so. They can SAY or print anything on their website. But, hearing Greiss story and this story and then Yehudya (I believe, it was, before removing his own posts) printing that he’s seen other SF families move young people into their homes only to indoctrinate them and use them for housekeeping service or help with their children. Their actions have definitely spoken LOUD and CLEAR. And, if they have a liquor license to sell liquor at Brunstadt???? What kind of “church” does that?
I am Yehudha. I removed my posts only because they linked to my blog, and led people there to comment about what I wrote on this blog. Not nasty things, but my blog is not about SF and I don't want it to be in any way connected to SF.
I went to smith's friends church yesterday w/my family, now they are selling "summary of living faith: The truth about Smith's Friends" by Lowell D. Streiker....for only $4.50 so it was a 0 no brainer for me got that! There's no copyright mumbo jumbo on it, so hopeully ok for me to quote a tiny sentence that has caught my eye......On page 6 of "Living Faith: The truth about Smith's friends" Lowell D. Streiker says, "The churches that constitute this movement definely do not break up families." then he goes on to say that people are allowed to visit w/their not in the church families member etc. I always had contact w/my not in the church family members. But stories of people being ferried away to house hold slavedom interest me : )
And smith's friends sister that sold me this book was extremely zealous of everything in the summary by streiker - they super back this lowell d streiker up......makes his little summary a interesting read indeed for me!
And yesterday they had many donnie and marie osmond sort of songs they sang ----- so osmonds the 70's! (maybe they caught on that I was a tad of a osmond fan and took note of that?????) and then a hee haw dollywood sort of skit were they were in costume's as country kitchen workers singing about rental cooking at macleay christian retreat were salem fellowship is located. I really ment to catch a meeting w/brunstad sattelight feeds sometime's they do that on their feast meetings.......just didn't have 0 luck....was 0 talk of god's word at it : ( All this fundraising they doing has in my opinion made it hard to get to a meeting and hear the word of god - they so much talking about raising money. I ain't been having any luck anyways, last meeting I went to was all about fundraising to also 0 word of god mentioned in it. Maybe I'm just unlucky and have hit the 2 of them in the year???????????? Well least I got a good book to read, you all welcome to comment on my blog it is smith's friends themed as always.
Calm down, Sophie!
Matthew 15:3-9
3. Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4. For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and your mother,and He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.
5. But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother,"whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"
6. then he need not honor his father or mother. Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
7. Hypocrites!Well did Isaiah prophesy
about you, saying:
8. These people draw near to Me
with their mouth.
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9. And in vain they worship Me
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
Seems to me that there is a nexus between Harold, Sophie, Keith and Yukonbound who always agree with one another on everything.
The independent views of others on the blog seem to me to be more utilitarian sans the emotional gushings on the part of some.
Objectivity is the first casualty when subjectivity rules the roost.
Being objective instead of subjective I believe is key in understanding the smith's friends, in their minds I believe they really are a perfect disney utopia/heaven on earth/where nothing ever or could ever go wrong (if something does happen to go wrong well it surely was a accident and that is it) But I am a girl scout mom, so I know what a real disney utopia really is - maybe not for all girl scout troups but mine they are baking seriously my daughter's girl scout troup is baking pies this next week, most the mom's in my troup are on the pta all them are friends w/each other very religious group - the birds sing happily in the tree's in this girlscout troop I'm not even kidding. Also I regularly go to radio disney events where my child dances on stage to her favorite songs - much disney you get that utopia happy birds singing in the tree's feeling least I do at a radio disney fest.....I've learned to not be revolted by the happy but embrace it. Yep I am a girl scout mom, who goes to many radio disney shin digs.
Birds are a bit off key sometime's at smith's friends churches -- but it's good to be able to crawl into their heads and understand that they have a disney happy birds singing view of them own selfs for the most part I really believe they do!
(read my profile I not saying the smith's friends were absolutely making fun of the people stupid enough to give them money and rent out macleay christian retreat ------- just it looked that way to me, they were dressed as hillbillies one song as rental cooking hillbillies singing a song in hick twang about rental cooking at macleay christian retreat, complete w/hillbillie kitchen props and everything) Maybe anything goes in the land of perfection where birds chirp in the tree's called the smith's friends? --------- don't think anymore that they'd murder somebody least I hope they aren't going to ever murder me in my sleep - yikes! Think good disney thoughts about the smith's friends myself good disney thoughts ; ) that's a smiley with a wink ------ I love ya smith's friends I found a way : ) I love that you always give me the bestest most edifying buisiness on the earth and you really do!!!!! Nothing better on the whole earth then a good on fire smith's friends meeting - nothing....many a meeting I've left burning on fire for god's word.....love that stuff! Hopefully I'm not all busted w/the smith's friends now. (I'm usually in the dog house w/most their church - for reals!)
No people's perfect I guess, and try to think the disney birds singing in the tree's for everyone is bestest! (plus I got a fresh blog post on my blog - it's some good smith's friends stuffs : ) have a great disney day you know I will : )
Shadowfax, Thanks for your comment. Harold, Sophie, and Keith seem to be trying to sort thru what is happening on a local level with the Oklahoma situation. The more they find out about the SFs as a result of this sorting out and thinking through, the more concerned they get.
I was an insider for several years with the SFs. The more I found out about them, over time, the more concerned I got.
So of course it's natural that we are finding points of agreement. Just like in the research you are doing, you will find yourself in agreement with certain people on a very regular basis.
We are all trying to be objective, I hope, including most of the current-insider SFs who have posted here. Our experience informs our judgment however, and I stand by the experience that I had firsthand, and the subsequent conclusions that I arrived at.
Shadowfax: There is definitely a "nexus" between Harold and myself. Incidently, I have no personal knowledge of who exactly Harold is, but I have reliable information that he is quite up to speed on the specifics of the situation here in OK. We both have personal knowledge and contact with the family/the young girl's situation which spawned this original post. I am more concerned by the subversive activities here than what I see as error-laden exegesis of Scripture by supporters and leaders of SF.
A quick point here: I've just returned from being out of town, and am short on time, but I believe it's already been stated and I agree that if (paraphrased)Jesus was not God--even while here on earth--it would have been wrong for people to have worshiped Him. He most certainly would have chastised them for their actions...yet He did not.
I think this is (again) one of those mysteries that God reveals, yet doesn't fully explain, i.e. Jesus was fully God and fully man while here on earth. Similar to the doctrine of predestination, i.e. God's choosing some for salvation was passing over others, leaving them to their deserved destruction. Always remember...God NEVER owes us anything, including an explanation.
Keith: Thanks for your candid views. I am not against the nexus.
1. But perhaps the blog has been pre-meditative in tarnishing the both the girl and SF at its origin without offering any explanations from the girl in question, her family, or the SF persons involved. It is a proxy blog. To be objective it might be wise to meditate on this section in John 7:
50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) 51 Doth our law judge anyone, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? 52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet. 53 And every man went unto his own house.
2. I do not think that even by "paraphrase" it is established that SF believes that Jesus was NOT GOD. What SF emphasises is that even if He was/is God, He did not overcome temptation as God but as a human being who faced every temptation any human being can/will face and overcame by the Holy Spirit which same privilege is given to all who believe on His name. For, SF therefore, proper worship would be that which is described in Romans 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
This would be perfectly in sync with the determination of the Logos when he incarnated as the man Christ Jesus as described in Hebrews 10:
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
3. Some of the old-ex-SF-timers keep harping back to their past experiences which may have been true or not. Living in the past is one thing but people move on which is what SF has done. It is useless for Yukonbound to talk of leaders who are dead and gone and a church that has moved forward and is different today than 20 year ago. The new outlook is found in the new literature much of which is available online on the church site and through the magazine Hidden Treasures.
4. On the local issue, the best way to know one's neighbours is to become friends with them and move in a spirit of reconciliation even as Jesus did. He made friends of the tax collectors and prostitutes and ignored religious Pharisees. So, if you think the SF are scum, perhaps you could learn from Jesus how to become friends with SF locally. Might involve becoming humbler than one is at this point in time and surrendering one's "prejudices" - the judgments made beforehand and on the basis of Harold's favorite buzzword - behaviour. Impossible? "Love NEVER FAILS."
Shadowfax: The "the girl in question, her family, or the SF persons involved" are not willing to participate in this public forum. That is their right. I would imagine they have instructed NOT to comment here...at least not in a way that would expose their true identities.
Several posts here have implied that Jesus did indeed give up His diety while here on earth. Had he not done so--according to others--His abiblity to overcome sin and the command for us to do the same would be unattainable. Their logic not mine.
Members of the local group have rebuffed attempts to "get to know them." THEY have chosen seclusion and an unwillingness to participate in congenial dialogue. They HAVE made verbal and written threats insinuating legal action.
The current SF church you and others describe does not match the actions and words of the local group here.
I don't ever recall referring to ANYONE here on this thread as "scum." I do believe they are grossly decieved.
Uriah_Heep, first you come on here with a public service announcement about Smith’s Friends web site, then quoting Sigurd Bratlie for my edification. When I ask you some pointed questions you dodge them saying you are “theologically neutral” and stand behind the Nicene Creed. OK, I’ll take you at your word because the original question from Keith was “Is this a cult?” and as I said before (and I’ll say it again) that it is the behavior that defines a cult and not their particular theology. Let’s look at some parallels between Smith’s Friends and some other groups.
There is a new book out by Elissa Wall called ‘Stolen Innocence’. In this book she talks about being raised in one of Warren Jeff’s polygamist Mormon families. Talking about their view of outsiders she writes “The remote sites appealed to followers because they had long been taught to be suspicious of all outsiders and to regard them as evil”.
After fire destroyed their Utah home, she writes “Our family was shocked by the outpouring of kindness from people outside our church. Their actions contradicted what we had long been taught about the ‘evil’ character of outsiders”.
Here in Oklahoma, the two children influenced by this local fellowship have both become suspicious and fearful of all friends and family members to the point of running away from them on sight.
Dr. Margret Singer (which I referenced much earlier) says “Many cults put great pressure on new members to leave their families, friends, and jobs to become immersed in the group’s major purpose. This isolation tactic is one of the cult’s most common mechanisms of control and enforced dependency.”
Dr. Lifton’s (which I quoted earlier) said “Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation.” And also “The cult’s ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too ‘sacred’ to call into question, and a reverence is demanded for the leadership.”
Elissa says in her book “Warren didn’t like having to deal with disobedience and questions concerning the priesthood. Our religion left no room for logical reasoning and honest questioning. Warren made no attempt to understand or tolerate any of this, deeming it as absolute rebellion.”
From former SF on this blog:
P.S. said, “The general stream of thought seemed to be that they were THE church, and all true believers on the earth would find their way to their group, and that those who were NOT in the church would not be part of "the bride of Christ" in eternity.”
TheTruth said, “Members of the cult resort visciously in terms of all criticism, because they believe they are the "chosen" and are not to be questioned by the "earthly" (and that includes other Christians).”
Jarsmom said, “I felt the same way when I left. blackballed etc, they called it faithfulness.” I think she meant unfaithfulness. And she also said “I wonder if you can appreciate the hurt that ensues when your best friend tells you to go take a hike. Totally cast from a group of people who were your whole life, all because I couldn’t stand the lifestyle, skirts, buns no tv, no movies etc.”
‘Giving it to God’ said “…I went to salem fellowship they are extremely happy I ain't in "the church" anymore - (they believing now I'm going to hell cause I'm not in the church anymore…)
Gladtobegone said, “I should answer your question as to why I left SF 20+ years ago. There were two main reasons - 1) the lifestyle and 2)the hatred for Christians not in SF. There was much condemnation for not following the outward restrictions on modesty, speech, amusements, etc. Then I changed jobs in 1984 and found myself with other Christians whom I wanted to fellowhship with, but couldn't because of the separatist teachings of SF.”
Yukonbound is right, the more I investigate the ideas, beliefs, and behaviors of this local fellowship of Smith’s Friends and the global organization as a whole, the more concerned I become for these families, their children, and our community. There seems to be more similarities than differences with most other cult groups.
By contrast, in the prologue of Charles Colson’s new book ‘The Faith’, he talks about the massacre that took place two years ago in the Amish schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania by a guy named Charles Roberts. Colson writes “While Charles Roberts chose to unleash anger on the innocent, the Amish chose to bestow forgiveness on the guilty. Newsreel footage showed the Amish horse-and-buggy cortege rolling along the main road in Nickel Mines on their way to the funerals of the slain children. It was a poignant and picturesque scene. But the images that stayed in the imagination were of Amish men and women attending Charles Robert’s funeral in the graveyard of his wife’s Methodist church. They insisted it was not their place to judge him. Amish leaders even asked their community to refrain from thinking of Roberts as evil.”
“The Amish also reached out to Marie Roberts and her children. They invited the family to attend the girls’ funeral – for the Bible says to mourn with those who mourn, and the Roberts family was mourning their own loss. As money poured in to address the medical bills of the wounded girls, Amish community leaders stipulated that a fund be set up from these resources to take care of the killer’s widow and three children.”
Colson goes on to write “In one way, we should wonder why the forgiveness of the Amish surprises anyone. It’s nothing but the Gospel, although admittedly an all-too-rare instance of its practice.”
Christian love is an action; not a feeling.
Christian love is a decision you make; not something you fall into.
Christian love is what you do; not something you say.
In response to shadowfax, this family did, in the beginning, try to befriend this church however the response they received was lies, deceptions, secrecy, and threats. In addition, the whole community has been nothing but nice to this group in spite of what they have done to these families. It is this community that has reached out to this fellowship, but continues to be rejected. It doesn’t matter what you say from halfway around the world from here, you can’t rewrite the history that has been, and continues to be, witnessed by those of us in this community here and now. The comments from former Smith’s Friends in other places only serve to confirm the observations and research done here.
I get the sense that Shadowfax is more of an SF "insider" than he is letting on. If not an actual insider, then in close touch with an insider, perhaps Elf-Asura. Perhaps he IS elf-asura, using another username.
Once again, it would be helpful to hear from other current SF insiders. A few have posted here and there through out this discussion. I would NOT be surprised if insiders have been warned against posting, though I am sure that many of them are closely reading what is written here.
There is MUCH MORE that I could write about my experiences then, and my experiences since then (I have maintained contact with some SF insiders and other ex-SF-insiders, so I am not speaking from a position of ignorance in terms of what is going on CURRENTLY with the SFs).
The most astonishing story to me that has come out of this entire blog discussion is the current leader of SFs publicly declaring at an international conference that he wanted to "kill all arabs".
This Oklahoma story is very sad, but it does not surprise me. It sounds very much like the group that I knew/know who are completely comfortable to split people from their families, if it means keeping people within their own group. Very indicative of cultistic behavior.
Wow, 500 comments in this thread. Quite the conversation!
There ARE good and humble and thoughtful people among the SFs, despite the many flaws found in the group. Their contributions here would be helpful.
A quick reply to one of Sophie's points. She wrote: "And, if they have a liquor license to sell liquor at Brunstadt???? What kind of “church” does that?"
Keep in mind that the facilities in Brunstad are an international CONFERENCE CENTER. It is a conference center that is made available to other organizations for rental usage. I would imagine that they have to have a liquor license in order to service the various groups who make use of the property.
Also, most evangelicals in Europe do not take issue with MODERATE alcohol consumption in the way that many american evangelicals do (i.e. most baptists, most pentecostals).
The smith's friends are the only religious group on the entire earth that I know of that preach "christ crucified" 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" It's a real item to preach every single sunday "christ crucified" I mean clean right here it says "but we preach christ crucified" that's what they were preaching like every sunday!!!!!!!! 1 Corinthians 2:2
"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." That's all paul wanted to hear, that's all he wanted to know about!!!!! You think all paul wanted to know about is jesus dieing on a cross on a tree?????? Surely NOT!!!!!!
That jesus denied himself and took up his cross daily, that he suffered in the flesh and was made perfect in the things he suffered, that ----- those who have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin ---- there's a cross there's a cross jesus had up he consecrated a new and living way through the veil that is his flesh, via suffering in the flesh, via having his cross up daily, and utterly crucifying his own flesh to it's lusts and desires ------ he had his cross up ----- he was crucified way before he was nailed to a stick!!!!! WAY BEFORE!!!!!! What other church on the earth regurlarly every sunday preaches that besides the smith's friends????????? I know of NONE!!!!!! -------- when they ain't talking about fundraising : p which they all know how I loath their fundraising : p it's to much when it takes up entire services like that where you can't even come up w/a bible verse to give me well your fundraising has gone to far in my opinion!!!!!! FOOOEY TO YOUR FUNDRAISING SMITH'S FRIENDS FOOEY TO IT!!!!!!!!
: p to you fundraising meetings : p to them
Harold,
I'll leave you to your conclusions.
It's not my job to change your views in any case.
I guess I have to also take your word for it that the community has done its best to mend fences and has been "rejected".
Well, just probably proves that Christ is ineffectual when placed in the hands of men!!
I hope this conversation continues along with the die-hard anti-SFs enjoying themselves by patting each other's backs!
Shadowfax,
good luck with your "research". :-)
and, regards to Elf-Asura!
Shadowfax: Your "elf" is showing!
Youkon
i agree with you that this thread
has gone on for so long. I think
also some of the contributors are
also insiders. I believe that for
the most part we have moved on and
we are contributing here because
we have insight that non members
could never have.
I would also like to address shadow
fax. It is very easy to do research on SF and remain unemotional, however there are those of us who have moved on, but
are still able to relate to this
whole thing,on a whole emotional
level.
I agree with Jarsmom. It gets boring when blogs are based primarily on the views of people with grudges. Beyond a point, the conversations do not move forward and this blog seems to have reached saturation point with people being able only to recycle their fixed position ad nauseum ad infinitum. Time to move on as Jarsmom mentioned.
Whats great about blog conversations is that certain dominant traits of the participants are revealed. Some, like the much maligned elf_asura were here to be sarcastic or for entertainment all of which riled the blog-owner no end, others like yukon and the truth were here only to malign the SF and repeat certain charges belonging to the 80s endlessly and to project themselves as having exclusive "insider" knowledge. But there is no real proof of their knowledgeability. Others are here to vent their bitterness and anger at certain events. Some have demonstrated a certain insularity of Bible-belt "community". It's been fun, but yes Jarsmom, time to move on and leave the people with grudges to sort their conundrums out themselves.
Poor, poor elf_asura/Uriah_Heep/Shadowfax.
Poor Keith.
Lost again!
Hard to dent the SF ain't it, in spite of all the weeping and howling and gnashing of teeth.
:-)
Heads up, ole chap!
Uriah, I think you may have mis-interpreted the most recent comment from Jarsmom.
Regards to Elf-Asura and Shadowfax!
Most of us, as Jarsmom wrote, have ALREADY moved on. Hopefully Elf-Asura will be able to one day as well, and stop popping up here like an obnoxious jack-in-the-box, only suitable for child's play and not for the work of perceptive and serious Christians who are evaluating the troubling and cultistic characteristics of a local church situation, and the broader implications that go with it.
Elf and Shadowfax are just a couple of East Indians that think they have a handle on America/Americans/American Culture. They have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of the situation that originally started this "conversation." I don't put any stock in Elf's comments for sure. He's a hack...but he's good for a couple of laughs.
Uriah Heep:
Let’s take a look at what Jarsmom ACTUALLY said: “Youkon i agree with you that this thread has gone on for so long. I think also some of the contributors are also insiders. I believe that for the most part WE have moved on and we are contributing here because we have insight that non members could never have…….It is very easy to do research on SF and remain unemotional, however there are THOSE OF US WHO HAVE moved on, but are still able to relate to this whole thing, on a whole emotional level.”
What she ACTUALLY said was “that this thread had gone on for so long” and also that she and others had moved on. She DIDN’T say it was TIME TO move on or that it gets boring when blogs are based primarily on the views of people with grudges. Those were your words-not hers. You claim to be “theologically neutral” and live on the opposite side of the globe from where these events are taking place, so why do you care if this blog continues or not?
You also said, “Others are here to vent their bitterness and anger at certain events. Some have demonstrated a certain insularity of Bible-belt "community".
That which has been done, cannot be undone, and history cannot be rewritten. But, yes we can move in a spirit of reconciliation. When people stand on God’s Word, speak the truth in love and state facts about things that have taken place; that is NOT venting bitterness and anger. That is speaking truth which may or may not always be favored by all parties involved. Sometimes truth hurts. Prov. 27:5-6 says, “Better is open rebuke than hidden love, wounds from a friends can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.”
You quoted 1 Corinthians 13:8. The verses that proceed it are 4: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5: It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily-angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6: Love does not delight in evil but REJOICES WITH THE TRUTH. 7: It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8: LOVE NEVER FAILS. 13: Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Rom: 2:8 says: But for those who are self-seeking and who reject THE TRUTH and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Ephesians 4:14-15: Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking THE TRUTH in love, we will in all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
Prov. 6:16: There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to Him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. (Notice that lying is mentioned twice in this passage.)
God calls His Christian children to stand on truth and be willing to defend right and wrong. Jesus did not ignore the Pharisees but spoke truth to them. (He may have ignored their laws, but not them.)
God loves ALL people and wants them to come to Him and have an open, honest, personal, relationship with Him. He forgives us and He wants us to forgive others also (Matt.6:14-15). It sounds like the girl’s family and friends have tried and are willing to do that. It takes parties on both sides to humble themselves, closely examine their own actions and motives, and be willing to dialogue. If they are not willing, then the question is “Why not?”
“You have heard that it was said, “’Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?” (Matt.5:43-47)
Sophie -
You wrote: "It takes parties on both sides to humble themselves, closely examine their own actions and motives, and be willing to dialogue. If they are not willing, then the question is “Why not?”"
This is true, but the SFs are not usually interested in asking the hard questions about the characteristics of their own group. Those who ask the hard questions will quickly find themselves as 2nd class citizens. If they persist in asking the questions, they will eventually be made to feel extremely uncomfortable by the "die hards" and will either have to relinquish their questions OR leave the group altogether.
They are not willing to ask the hard questions because they are so firmly convinced that THEY are right and outsiders ARE wrong. Extremely arrogant, obviously. Their global leader can even stand at a conference and say "I want to kill all Arabs", and at least 2 others who heard this stood up and testified in the same meeting and repeated his words! This is the sort of mental/spiritual bondage that we are dealing with here. To my knowledge, this leader never apologized for making such a heinous and unChristlike remark.
Here is how it works for an insider-SF - the Insider, in his/her own mind, HAS humbled himself before God already - over and over - and the Insider will never find the fellowship/edification outside of the SF group. So despite the pressure from so-called family members and so-called friends, the Insider can not really move on from the group. Those who encourage the Insider to move on "do not understand" or "have not received revelation about the brotherhood" or "do not care for the message of victory over sin" or "are part of the Harlot".
I believe misunderstanding and misinterpretation are abundant on this blog and deliberately so. In no way did I say the blog must not go on. In the final accounting, what does it matter if it does or it does not?
I only pointed out objectively that actions driven by grudges do not count in the Lord's eyes. We still do not have (in this kangaroo court on the SF) the girl's version, her family's version, or the local SF version. I suggest the kangaroo court go into recess.
Again, "serious" and "perceptive" Christians do not come only from the American Bible belt. Keith's comment on "east Indian" is racist in tone. And why rail on about the Arab issue when it is in synch with the central doctrine of a certain nation which is falling apart?
If Yukon has moved on, great! And he is right on one thing but not for the reasons he cites. That is, all these words make no dent on the SF (globally and probably not even locally).
The SF has been forged from the beginning through persecution by other so-called Christians. Being persecuted is a strength. It teaches you how to survive. Given this experience, it is objective truth that the SF can sustain itself through and beyond these attacks by a small circle whose intention is its destruction.
This is an objective view I place before the small circle operating here including an angry Keith, a more sober and bookish Harold, indignant proof-texters like Sophie and emotive ex-SFers like Yukon.
I wish you all well. "Peace, peace to those who are near and those who are far off."
Uriah_Heep: Keith's comment on "east Indian" is racist in tone. If my comment seemed racist, that was not the intent. I was simply pointing out that your's and elf's geographical residents prohibit you from having a complete understanding of some of the perspectives expressed here. I actually considered the word "foreigners" when I wrote that. My apologies. Do you think I am able to speak with authority re: the customs/lifestyles of East Indian peoples simply because I have read about them or maybe know someone from there? Actually, I do--she and her husband are Indians that started a church/Christian school in Damoh. We correspond from time-to-time. My wife and I sponsor a child at the school. Does that qualify me to make comments about how things should be done in India? (Didn't think so.)
My "anger" is with those who would tear apart a family all in the name of a supposed Christian church.
The "the girl's version, her family's version" have been given here. You need to go back and read the entire thread if you think that is not the case. As far as the local SF group, they appear to have dug a hole and crawled in it re: this matter. They are also pretty much non-existant on any other level in this community which kinda puts a kink in their being a witness for Christ/their church.
You'll be back. Elf never "left." All of you guys still come back here and read the posts--you may not comment as frequently, but you'll be back.
Uriah: Keith's remark about East Indians was certainly not racist. Though I can see how the emotionally volatile Elf_Asura/his friends would twist a remark like that into something it is not.
No one ever said that serious and perceptions chrisians only come from the american bible belt. No one believes that. But this is what people who fail to make persuasive arguments have to do - wrongfully twist statements that others made into something that was not said.
As for equating the SF leader's remarks about the Arabs with the policies of the USA: you are ignorant and unstudied. Therefore you probably are NOT a serious minded and perceptive christian who can comment in a helpful way on the subjects at hand..
The Arab issue is relevant because it goes to the heart of one of the central SF problems: the group-think and blindly following fleshly, immature leaders who make ridiculous and unChristlike proclamations during sermons, and then only post those sermons on "internal", "hidden" websites for just the insiders.
No one expects that these words posted here will make a dent among people like you and Elf: narrow minded, biblically illiterate, and high-minded. Rather, we are having a conversation about a particular situation, and things that some of us observed among the SFs.
Thanks for being so OBJECTIVE, Uriah/Elf/Shadowfax! Your objectivity is truly in a league of its own!.
The arab episode is also significant because it happened fairly recently. So did this Oklahoma situation. And there are disturbing and unChristlike aspects about both situations that call to mind a LOT that many people experienced recently and not so recently.
Uriah Heep: You said, “Time to move on as Jarsmom mentioned.” Then in the same post you said, “It's been fun, but yes Jarsmom, time to move on and leave the people with grudges to sort their conundrums out themselves.”
In this latest post you said, “In no way did I say the blog must not go on.” Then just a few sentences later, you said, “I suggest the kangaroo court go into recess.”
Do you really believe that we are so oblivious that we don’t pick up on these discrepancies?
“Again, "serious" and "perceptive" Christians do not come only from the American Bible belt.”
You’re absolutely right about that. I don’t believe anyone on this blog has ever suggested otherwise. There are many Godly Christians all over this world.
“And why rail on about the Arab issue when it is in synch with the central doctrine of a certain nation which is falling apart?”
There are several reasons one would “rail on” about such a comment (“I want to kill all Arabs”) coming from ANYONE, but especially from a leader of a group who calls itself “Christian”. The label Christian implies that one accepts Jesus as his/her Savior. The Bible says that He is the Good Shepherd and we are His “sheep”. We not only accept that He died for us and nailed our sins to the cross with Him, but that we follow Him as a sheep follows a shepherd. He is our leader and our example. I don’t believe that anywhere in the Bible Jesus ever says anything about wanting to “kill all” of any nation. He preached love, forgiveness, righteousness, holiness, compassion, kindness…..etc. He did not preach hate and wanting to kill people. So as His followers we should not preach this either.
You called me an indignant proof-texter. You are correct in using the adjective “indignant” which means anger aroused by something unjust, unworthy, or mean. Yes, I am angry…angry at an injustice and something that is very mean perpetrated by a group of people who claim to be Christian. And, I stand on the Word of God, because I am a Christian. I can back up what I say and my actions by using God’s Word, the Bible. I will not apologize if that is offensive to you or anyone else. Christians take comfort knowing that God blesses those who not only hear the Word, but do what it says. (I in no way claim to be perfect. But by the Holy Spirit living in me, I make attempts to live out God’s principles daily and be obedient to Him. By His blood, I am healed. Isaiah 53) I may be angry…anger is an emotion that God gave us when He created us in His image. After all, the Bible is full of events revealing God’s anger when He saw injustice and wrongdoing.
WWW.BRUNSTAD.ORG!!! VISIT IT!
It is very interesting how whether in the USA or India freedom of religious belief and expression is what comes under attack. The form of the attack comes in the form of persecution. The persecutioner demands that his victim "convert" or "reconvert" to his or her point of view. Manistream churches persecute sects. Mainstream religions persecute other belief systems. Christians kill Arabs. Arabs kill Jews. Hindus kill Christians. Catholics kill Protestants. Muslims kill infidels. And so on and on. "War begins in the mind of men."
What a wonderful world!
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/world/asia/13india.html?pagewanted=1&hp
There is a vast difference between a person who just says something and a nation that does the same. If Yukonbound is so upset over the statement about Arabs, he should be protesting in the streets over the killing of millions of Arabs by a certain nation which is soon to sow what it has reaped. But, of course the oil that runs his car seeps from the blood of the dead Arabs and blood is cheaper than oil!
As Keith has perceptively noted, I am one of the many who pop by every once in a while to see how the discussion is coming along. I just want to say that this conversation has taken on a decidedly antagonistic tone, with people making personal comments about each other and belittling each other in a way that does not lead to anything positive, forward-looking or up building. So my question to every one of you is this: The situation being what it is, and with no change in sight any time soon, what can we learn from this experience? ( I am referring to the situation with the girl, not the blog.)What good can we all take from it, what can we learn from it that we can put to use in our personal lives?
And an aside note: I've seen several mentions of the "I want to Kill all Arabs" quote on here. I think I can safely say that none of you were at that conference, please correct me if I am wrong, and that quote is incorrect and taken out of context. He was telling a story of how he reacted to the news of I believe it was the Yom Kippur War in 1973. The point of the story was how much his attitudes had changed since his youth time. It was very unfortunate that in his audience of 9000, there were a few individuals who, because of their nationality and history, chose to misconstrue his remark. After they repeated his comments, one of the men with spiritual responsibility in the church got up in front of the same assembly and clarified the remark and made it clear that it was not to be misinterpreted in that manner. Sadly, I find that many people here have made the same mistake as those few ignorant people. However, I do think ( and this is my personal opinion only) that knowingly having an international audience, it was a foolish remark to make.
Be that as it may, every use of the "quote" (which was in fact " I wanted to kill all Arabs" in the past-tense and NOT the present tense) here in this blog has be out of context and inaccurate. And so far, you all and especially Keith have been very careful and admirably so, to stick to the facts as closely as you could, so I thought you would appreciate knowing the real quote.
I'm looking forward to your answers to my question/challenge!
Heather, Welcome back. I agree that this entire conversation, at times, has had an antagonistic tone. I think you why. I do think, also, that there is a place for "Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes." (prov 26:5)
Some of the insiders who posted here needed to be responded to with force and clarity. There is an underlying arrogance and duplicity at work in them, that I have not - for example - sensed in you and Daniel Strubhar (who commented earlier in this conversation).
One of the points of this entire discussion has been for those of us ex-SFs to convey our past experience, and to make some correlations with the situation at hand. Which, sad to say, was quite simple to do.
I appreciate your perspective on the "Kill all Arabs" situation. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps not.
1. Were you present at that conference when this remark was made? If not, are you basing your information on an audio/video recording, or on how it was reported to you - perhaps by the leader himself - with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and the "filter" that may have gone along with the 20/20 hindsight?
2. Did this leader HIMSELF get up and clarify the remark, or did someone else do the clarifying? If it was someone else, then Why? If he made such a "foolish" remark, then shouldn't he have have clarified it himself?
3. I would add that I have heard from others, as well, regarding this situation. Perhaps they mis-understood, but they believe that the leader used the present tense when speaking i.e. "I want to kill all Arabs".
"I think you why" should read "I think you know why."
Heather, I'd point out that the conversation here has been constructive and helpful, at times. A lot of people here have covered a lot of ground, and I think there has been helpful input from almost all the parties involved.
Also, here's a challenge for you: can you post a link to an audio/video file that contains the afore-mentioned sermon? That would provide all the proof that is needed, to back up your version of the story - which I would hope is the accurate version and which I personally would welcome!
Heather, you wrote: "The situation being what it is, and with no change in sight any time soon, what can we learn from this experience? ( I am referring to the situation with the girl, not the blog.)What good can we all take from it, what can we learn from it that we can put to use in our personal lives?"
Excellent questions. If I were newly finding out about the SFs, and if I were in the place of Keith and Harold (close to this OK situation), then I think I would arrive at the conclusions that they seem to have arrived at about the SFs.
And I would warn friends and family against this group.
Another lesson I learn is: biblical truth matters. It matters when a group only advocates reading its own authors and singing its own songs. It matters when said group has very little/zero interaction with other christians and other christian groups.
I've learned that the power of personality and charisma matters, often for a negative end. That the power of group-think and all its ramifications, in a group like this, cannot be overstated. I learned from my time with the SFs, and since then, and I have thus been spared from other sources of error and the teachings of other divisive and exclusive "christians".
In regards to this girl, a major take home lesson is that anyone - anyone - can be vulnerable and can therefore make dubious choices. The fact that she was raised in a strong Christian home, and took the route that she did, speaks volumes. Granted, it does seem that there was some highly unusual behavior from the local leader and others in the local group. Behavior that one usually does not see except from narrow minded and cultistic groups.
elf_asura made the following remark on another blog: I think it is better to be an atheist than to hold to the beliefs of
people who claim the Bible as the final word on everything. (Source) With that kind of logic, I'm not surprised at some of the comments he has made...one of the reasons his recents posts have been "dismissed." Doesn't add to the discussion.
Sophie, Heather and Yukonbound2: thanks so much for your tempered comments. Definitely some things to think aoout.
re: Heather's question: I have learned--
1) For some people, no amount of "truth" can/will change their minds
2) Sometimes things happen that cannot and may never be explained; God NEVER promised to reveal everything to us. Frankly, I don't think our pea-brained minds could handle "everything."
3) Some people are disallusioned and evil. They see nothing wrong with their lives/motives/actions/words as long as they believe they are right.
4) Any positive influence the local SF group may have had has been grossly tarnished by their coercion of at least two (that we know of) young people in our community.
5) God is bigger...no matter what.
6) I am even more determined to teach my children what I believe to be the truth, i.e "the final word" of the Bible. (Before someone misterprets this statement, I am NOT saying the families involved here did not do that. I'm say that I--ME--MY WIFE--need to do a better job than WE have been doing.)
I'm still praying for reconcilation within two families that--for now--have been negatively changed because of SF and their particular interpretation of Scripture.
Thanks Keith. Part of the problem with most SFs is they read very little or nothing at all by godly men&women outside of their own group, and of course questioning is strongly frowned upon. Hence their teachings and practices are only subjected to "peer review" internally, and not to the modulating and even helpful benefits of interacting more with outside Christians. These no-books and no-questions approaches are very effective "strategies" for a group that wants to keep itself separate from all outside christians.
Uriah, The recent reports of persecution from India are VERY concerning. I know many people who are earnestly praying for that situation and who are sending financial support. Thank you for the article.
However, I hope that you are not equating that persecution with the significant questions raised here (and elsewhere) about the SFs and about this Oklahama situation. It is not persecution to ask challenging questions, to weigh the facts, and to examine what has been said/done. Ref: Paul's commendation of the Bereans.
For now, I am not going to reply to your additional points about blood and oil. Hope you understand.
I know full well that there are those among the SFs who are exemplary people (in many respects) and who try to lead lives of humility and devotion. They are obviously free to decide for themselves about where and with whom they will fellowship. They are also free to fellowship with a group that bashes other christians and church groups, even if such statements lead to intense alienation of believers that they might otherwise attract.
I know full well that no SFs would actually kill arabs or anyone else. I am possibly willing to accept Heather's explanation, though hearing the sermon itself would be helpful.
And clearly, those of us with first hand experiences are free to share our experience and our history and perspective, even if that leads to issuing cautions and concerns (which some insiders might attribute to "bitterness" or "anger". So be it. Those types of insiders are not the ones I am writing to, when I share my experience and perspectives).
Hi Yukon
Thanks for your questions. As far as I know, there is no audio file that of that comment that I have access to, and yes, i was actually present when he said it. I do remember gasping and thinking to myself that this statement was going to lead to trouble though! =)
However, it is not unusual that there is no audio file. The church is a bit behind on the technology side of things when it comes to this. Apparently they are trying to improve though!
Heather, I am still skeptical, because of conflicting reports about this. Given the confusion over the "kill all arabs" public meeting, being able to hear it or see it firsthand would be good in order to clear up the issue. As I said before, this entire episode reflects the type of group-think that is very much a hallmark of the SFs.
Why not put the record clearly before everyone, and if some of us need to adjust our positions, we can then do so.
And, with all due respect,
I find it hard to believe that an audio or video recording is not available. Perhaps it has been removed from access, because of the controversy? For a long long time, recordings have been made of all meetings at all conferences, and widely dispersed.
Another person had communicated this information regarding this particular meeting:
"The audio clip should still be online in the multimedia section of the Brunstadworld.org site (if they havent removed it yet).
It was in the context of a Brunstad summer conference (2006 I Believe), where there was a special meeting which was titled as "Focus On Israel".
...
The discussion was about how the media in Norway was very anti-Israel and anti-SF. ______ said he wanted to join the Israeli army so he could "kill all the arabs". Naturally this met great applause, as does anything _____ says.
The next day, there was a normal conference meeting and ___ went up to the pulpit and said "I want to kill all arabs also!" (___ is Turkish). Also another brother from England (forgot his name) said something along the same lines.
This meeting was later released in a DVD and sold to members. The DVD was called "Focus On Israel"."
Heather, I would like to respond to your question about what we should all learn from this.
1. No one is beyond rebuke. It is healthy for people to question those in a position of leadership. This idea that Smith’s Friends, or any others, are above reproach is dangerous. James 3:1 “…because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” God will judge those who teach more strictly but we are all instructed to test the spirits according to the scriptures so as not to be deceived by false teachers. That has a purifying affect on any church.
2. This also applies to teachers in any school system, not just the church. They too, will be held accountable for being honorable and upstanding as well as handling truthful information.
3. Kare Smith, Sigurd Bratlie, Kip McKean, Sun Myung Moon, Tony Alamo, David Berg, David Koresh are the kind of teachers that Peter warned about in the second chapter of 2 Peter.
4. Evil is alive and well in this world.
5. Religion is dangerous.
6. Being religious and believing in Christ are not the same thing.
7. The Bible stands alone as the true word of God.
8. Our hope is not in men. The only hope we have is in THE God who came to earth in the form of a man, was crucified for OUR sins and, and was resurrected for OUR justification, which is Jesus the Christ, a free gift from God which can not be earned so that no man can boast.
Hi, it makes me a little bit sad to kill a discussion that has been so hot for almost one year.
As read in this blog it seems that Kaare Smith has made a statement that he wants to kill all the arabs in the world. So guys, I had the honour of being there, and I can explain what happened.
As mentioned by some people here the context was Israel's history and battle for freedom and peace, as an example for the spiritual battle each Christian has to fight against his own sin. During the You Kippur war Kaare Smith had just converted to the church, and he recalled this and told the crowd how he wanted to join the Jewish army to kill the arabs that wanted to destroy Israel. (This, of course, as a result of the relationship between zeal and wisdom which is quite normal for newly converted Christians.). In the next sentence he made it clear that he of course loved all the arabs and wanted also the Christian gospel to reach them, just to make sure this should not be misunderstood. He was also thankful that the responsible brothers had advised him not to go to Israel.
Later, in the same conference, Yakup Özyurek from Turkey made a humorous point in his speech, proclaiming that he also wanted to kill the arabs. This resulted in a spontaneous laughter from the crowd, because Özyurek was so self-ironic, being an arab himself.
Of course, if you isolate the statements from Kaare Smith and Yakup Özyurek, you can make the headlines as big as you want, but if someone went out of that meeting believing it was an order to kill the arabs, i guess he would not be smart enough to distingusish between arabs or europeans.
To be honest I can not remember an English brother repeating it, maybe it was in another meeting I did not attend.
If Smith's Friends really wanted to kill the arabs it would not make sense that the leader Sigurd Bratlie risked his own life to go to Bagdad and visit Christian Iraqis in 1978. And it would hardly be possible for a Palestinian woman to have an apartment in Brunstad Conference Center if Smith's Friends hated the Palestinians.
I hope this made it all clear and I apologize for my bad English.
Bjarne Fosse:
Thanks for the detailed reply. It was helpful and clarifying.
Your english is excellent!
More later.
Heather: I’m glad that you’ve noticed and appreciate that Keith and others have tried to stick to the facts. I also appreciate the fact that you want to print the truth on what was actually said concerning the Arab situation. After all, Christ is Truth and as Christians, we should only state truth as well. But concerning the technology, you said, “The church is a bit behind on the technology side of things when it comes to this.”
How does SF send their live messages all over the world if they are a “bit behind” technologically speaking?
Also, you mentioned looking forward to someone answering your questions/challenges. Last June 9, I asked you a question and I’m still looking forward to an answer as well. So, I’ll ask it again. From your comments, having a close family is apparently important to you. So, how do you feel knowing that the group you identify with apparently sees nothing wrong with splitting families (who were once very close) apart? It obviously has happened more than once within this group. Does that not bother you?
From research, it appears that SF preaches strongly that divorce is wrong. But, they don’t seem to mind splitting young people away from their own family…the same people who “trained them up” to young adulthood. Frankly, I don’t see the difference. Their family is the people who God ordained to share their goals and dreams, memories, common interests, friendships, and to be there for each other in times of need or just enjoy each other’s friendship and accomplishments. Intentionally splitting apart family members who love each other is against God’s precepts and wisdom. There are many Biblical references that deal with relationships between children and parents and those relationships don’t end just because a child becomes “of age”. A healthy “church” doesn’t replace a person’s family with their own family. It is so hypocritical to talk about how much zeal you have for God and then intentionally demolish another family.
This particular group of SF is a masquerade. All churches are made up of people. And because ALL people are sinners, every church is susceptible to people doing things that are ungodly or un-Christ like. There are NO perfect churches here on this earth. I understand that. But, it appears that SF advocates its members deliberately destroying other families for their own advantage. So, how do you feel about that? How would you feel if one of your sibling’s school teachers turned them against you and your parents? Or, for that matter, how do you think this SF family would feel if someone did this to them and one of their children?
Hello Sophie,
I'm sorry if I tried your patience by not answering your previous question. I didn't have access to the internet for a while in the early summer, so I may have missed it then.
As always, I can only speak for myself and my own personal opinion, but I can freely give you those! What I meant by "technologically behind" in that respect is that although we have recordings of almost everything somewhere, we don't have everything in a format where it can be put on the internet. However, it is a work in progress, and I know that www.brunstad.org is working to make audio files of stuff available in the future. Most of our work is done by volunteers, so sometimes it takes longer than we would like to get things done. =) However, Bjarne Fosse has provided an excellent and exact account of the meeting and quote you were concerned with.
Now regarding your questions about families. I have to say that in my 25 years of being in the church, and having lived for a while in Norway, Germany and Canada and experienced a wide variety of different churches and cultures, I've actually never met anyone who was forcibly or otherwise separated from their family, for any reason. I do know people who have let misunderstandings and disappointment grow until it poisons the relationship.
It goes both ways. In my family, 3 of my siblings have chosen not to be in the church my parents raised us in. I'm sure some of them are not even Christians. However my parents receive them with love in their home, and I have never seen anything from my parents or my siblings which would indicate that either one of them was being separated from each other. If this is indeed the case in Oklahoma, then it a tragic anomaly.
I know very little of the details, but I was wondering about something. The girl involved here seems to be an intelligent and well-brought up young woman. She obviously made a choice and made that choice for certain reasons. I don't think this is a case of a powerless victim. As Keith has shown us, she seems like a girl who knows her own mind. So she herself plays a role in this issue, not just the family or just the church in Oklahoma.
That being said, I must reiterate that in every single circumstance, unless the family is unhealthy or abusive in some way (and it certainly does NOT sound like that is the case here) my personal perspective is that reconciliation should be a priority, regardless of circumstances or blame on any of the three parties involved. Nothing can ever go back to the way things used to be, but that doesn't mean they can't all build a future together. I'm sure the family doesn't expect her to change her beliefs or divorce her husband, and the church should certainly not expect her to not love her parents to whom she owes her childhood and good upbringing to. I honestly can't figure out why, if the family loves her and respects her decisions, even if they weren't made in the best possible circumstances, that there can not be full reconciliation. And of course, the church should encourage love between parents who obviously care for their daughter, and a daughter who cares for her parents.
I mean, if we're going to spend eternity together, we might as well get along here on earth. =)
However, like I said, I know very little of the details and these are just some of my (somewhat) perplexed thoughts on the matter. I'm well aware that my opinions bear no weight on the matter, but as Sophie so kindly asked for them, I'm happy to give them!
Bjarne, Thanks again. A few days ago, I wrote that I know full well that no SFs would kill Arabs or anyone else. I have never believed that any of the SFs would ACTUALLY kill arabs, which partly explains my astonishment at the version of the story that I had heard about the statement of wanting to kill all arabs (which was still a rather foolish remark to make, regardless of the context that you have provided).
I am willing to accept your version of the story since it really seems like you were actually present at those meetings. Still, video/audio would be helpful. I was less willing to accept Heather's version, for reasons that she knows.
I am GLAD to find out that my understanding of the story was not accurate, though I simply relayed what I heard from someone else who was present at the meeting. I do find it somewhat curious though, that only NOW is someone finally bringing this version that you have presented. This story has been percolating in this thread, and at the google group, for a few months at least. It almost feels like you have been given "permission" to write your version?
I am familiar with Sigurd Bratlie's trip to Iraq and his imprisonment there which was 30 years ago. And the SFs is a much different denomination-organization than it was 30 years ago (hence, many have chosen to leave a group that they were at one time attracted to but left because of the many negative changes they saw building up over time).
And, Sigurd Bratlie and the current leader are two very different men. Sigurd Bratlie, for example, would have known better than to make such a controversial statement - even if he had good intentions.
I think a lot of people (ex-insiders, and even many insiders) probably feel that the current leader pales in comparison to Sigurd Bratlie. And also in comparison to other very fine upstanding men/women who are still with the SFs and also compared to some very good men/women who have chosen to leave the SFs during the last several years. As someone wrote on the google group, if Elias Aslaksen (leader before Sigurd Bratlie) were alive, he would fire the current leader on the sport.
"on the spot"
Not to get too personal, but I totally disagree with Elf Asura's perspective on Yukonbound. If anything, Yukon has shown nothing but a willingness and openness to rational discussion and debate. It's been a pleasure talking with him through here.
Heather
thank you for your comments, open
honest and show how sf opperates.
That most families do stay intact
even if someone joins sf.
As heather noted the ok city group]
may be an anomaly. What I noticed
was that differnt things were more
or less tollerated depending on the
fellowship. Mine was a little
"stricter" may I say. While others
were a little more "tollerant".
It sounds like the reasons I left
arent even issues any more and they
have recieved "inlightenment that
us sisters can wear britches now"
As a whole they are withdrawn from
the rest of the body, but those
who have contact with "Harlott"
christians realize that they have
more in common than they realized
and they are more accecpting of
other christians. I see these as
positive changes but it disturbs
me to think they are encouraging
people to take out loans to gift
the church. In my fellowship giv-
ing was VERY downplayed. THat is
to the leading brothers credit. I
miss a lot of things about SF ie
the relationships were some of the
best Ive ever experienced. How
ever the downers eventually ended
up being deal breakers and sadly
the negatives were far fewer than
the positives.
I would like to add I think I know
who Heather is, and I have met her
and her family. She is a very
sweet, warm and friendly young
woman. Her Mom and Dad, OUTSTAND
ing, you all would really like her.
Keith
BTW why are so many post deleted?
Jarsmom: elf_asura said recently....Keith hates me and so deletes my posts. He also makes demands that I open my blog up for him to make comments. But he is unwilling to weigh the fact that most people writing here do not have open blogs. However, I am quite happy to have my posts deleted because it makes Keith's animosity transparent!
1) I don't hate elf. I HAVE deemed him an idiot as well as a dishonest individual. He came here originally stating he was merely interested in the conversation and had no real connection to SF. That is a lie. He is personally acquainted with the SF people involved here in Oklahoma. (Some of your friends are very sloppy with their blogs and other internet based documents. They tend to leave things open for people like me to see exactly who and where their affiliations are.)
2) elf used to have a blog that was OPEN. He shut it down AFTER I commented there. Don't let him tell you or anyone else that he doesn't have a blog(s), right elf aka avygravey? I don't demand anything from elf other than he treat others the same as he feels he is entitled to be treated.
3) As far as my "transparent animosity," there's no animosity. Just an accurate discernment of a disengenuious liar. His blog--he can close it. My blog--I can dictate who comments. You gotta love America.
4) Bottom line: I delete elf's comments as soon as I see them. He's not worth reading. Everyone else's comments get to stay as long as they play nice.
Heather, I would like to expand a little on your statement that we will “be together in eternity”. This appears to be contrary to SF teaching. I have been labeled by Smith’s Friends as a “harlot” and therefore, according to SF, will not be in heaven with you. For you to make that statement would indicate that you are the anomaly in your church, if you truly believe that.
Smith’s Friends teaches that the harlot is “the religious world”. That is FACT, backed up by the writings of Sigurd Bratlie and the testimony of numerous ex-SF members.
I realize that you are not privy to all the information here and it is all too easy to focus on the girl and her family for these problems without approaching the possibility that the church had anything to do with it. Let me remind everyone that this girl and her family are not the only victims. There is another young man who is connected with this church who has shown the same behavior. It may be possible that the girl has issues; maybe the family she comes from has issues. But when we start to see more than one young person involved who exhibits the same behavior you have to look for a common denominator, like this local Smith’s Friends fellowship. It was pointed out by Elf that they “preach and teach steadfastly the conditions of discipleship mentioned in Luke 14:25-33.”
This and other evidence points to this SF fellowship and the prospect that these young people have been taught that those outside the church, in particular their own family, intend to harm them. This fellowship has deliberately attempted to destroy any trust that exists between these two individuals and their families. These are the only two that I know about, so there is still the possibility that there are more.
This is a good example of how cults separate people from everyone else and force them to become completely dependent on the group. It is called exploitation and is classic cult behavior.
Your statement that she is not a powerless victim also shows ignorance on the subject of thought reform. The most common victims of cult indoctrination are actually those that are more intelligent. That is why college campuses are such a fertile hunting ground for groups like this. These young people, who are intelligent and curious and exploring other ideas in the world, get sucked into it through a deliberate web of lies and deceit in a place where they are away from their normal reference points (family, friends, etc). Even the most intelligent people will make poor decisions when isolated from truth and consistently fed false and misleading information.
I agree that reconciliation is important, but unfortunately it is apparent that this SF church is not interested. All attempts to ask questions are framed as “attacks”. Go back and read how many times Elf and other SF members used that word. It is another tactic used to prevent any real dialog so as to isolate people from truth and maintain control of them. It is also interesting to notice how much this same tactic is used by certain political organizations here in the U.S.
Also notice that Elf makes many references to scripture but never quotes any. Yet he ridicules and berates Sophie for her use of scriptures to make her points. So who is really being attacked here?
If, as jarsmom says, that this fellowship is an anomaly within SF then that is good for you but when so much of their behavior is backed up by the writings of the church leadership and examples of people like Elf , please forgive me if I don’t conform to your view of Smith’s Friends.
I just noticed that this post is over 2 years old and there have been 500+ comments. Just today, there were 77 visits to this blog, many of them to this particular post. Thanks to all of our "friends" from Norway, India, Canada (beauty, eh? Geddy Lee rocks!) and of course, all of our American "friends" --especially the locals-- who have taken the time to stop by and add to (and sometimes subtract from) from the conversation.
We may not be able to do much (physically) about the situations that have already occured, but we CAN continue to put forth truth and expose deceit as long as God gives us breath.
Still praying...
Some questions & observations about the comments here:
1. A girl and boy whom people do not know are being discussed and their ability to be adults who make their own choice questioned WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT OR PARTICIPATION HERE thanks to the proxies who claim to be acting on behalf of a "community" or the "families" of the two.
2. Are their families aware that they are being given attention in the public sphere by those who are using them to drive a campaign against SF? Does the blog-owner have their permission to be their "proxies"? Would it be any different if the names of the families are released here?
3. Real attacks and charges of attacks, both personal and otherwise, are bandied about on all sides - to be objective.
3. People keep quoting Elf as an authority when he is dismissed and maligned as an IDIOT and censored with no right of defense in an insulting manner by the blog owner who claims to be a keeper and defender of Christian values.
4. When any information contrary to the fixed beliefs of the key players on this blog appear, which might hint at the SF not EXACTLY being the monsters they are made out to be, the information is ridiculed and the fixations repeated.
5. Is it the intention of the blog to "demonise" the SF at any cost? Going back over some of Elf's quotes on this blog, it seems that the term "harlot" used by Sigurd Bratlie is a figure of speech and not to be taken personally or institutionally. Doing so would be twisting a figure of speech into the literal. This slip can happen to people both within and without SF due to ignorance of the meta-levels at which language works.
Uriah_Heep:
1) You are correct in some cases. However, I am personally acquainted with the girl and her family; I also have had contact with the boy's family. Several other posters here know both families as well.
I am acting on my own behalf in raising a simple question and it is the same question I asked from the start: "Is this a cult?"
As far as consent, do you have consent to speak on behalf of anyone you have quoted, etc? Do you have the consent of Kåre J. Smith or elf to speak for them?
The question re: the activities of the local SF group here has simply been raised. I wasn't aware that I needed consent to ask a question.
2) Yes, the families are very much aware. Actually, the names of the parties have been "published" here. You need to read very carefully back through this post/thread. I have refrained from repeatedly using names, even those of the SF group out of respect for both parties. They know who they are. Believe it or not, I/we are trying to keep the conversation as civil as possible.
3) I'm not sure what you are implying/saying here. There have certainly been accusations made by both sides here. That's just part of the "debate process." If the desire of those posting here is to see the truth be told, then accusations (you call them attacks) will certainly occur.
3) [sic] I readily admit that I used the word "idiot" to respond to elf. He was/and continues to act like one. Read back through the thread; he has resorted to some of the same type/level of name-calling. I'm not saying it's the most appropriate behavior. Deep rooted beliefs and feelings are being discussed here. I may not always present myself in the most appropriate manner, but I also don't get my feelings hurt when someone calls me a name. I was in third grade a LONG time ago.
You stated: " the blog owner who claims to be a keeper and defender of Christian values." So if I (or anyone else) say something you don't like or that may be considered insulting by you, my faith is called into question? BUT, if you, elf and others take the same tact, that's OK and we should just accept whatever you say as "truth?" As long as I know the rules! (insert eye-roll here)
"…censored with no right of defense." I'm not stopping anyone from setting up their own blog and lambasting the bat snot out of me or whomever they please. However, it has already been proven that elf cannot be trusted and that he has misrepresented himself and his association with SF and the parties/situation being discussed here. For that, he has been ejected from the game!
4) I am open to the notion that SF as a whole is not a "monster." As has already been pointed out however, because of their lack of denominational structure/oversight, the door is thrown wide open for abuse, which is what I believe we are seeing here.
All Baptist congregations are not the same, all Methodist congregations are not the same, all SF congregations are not the same.
5) "…Is it the intention of the blog to "demonise" [sic] the SF at any cost?" Nope. Just trying to understand a very sad and destructive situation that has come upon some very undeserving people.
Thanks Keith for clarifying.
At the risk of inviting your ire, I would say that calling someone an idiot on the blog reflects upon the high moral ground of civility that you claim for yourself. But you also justify yourself by being at the same type/level as Elf in name-calling!!!
"The game"???? I thought it was all about "the truth"!!!!!!!!!!
What's the game? Is that figurative speech or literal? :-)
"We may not be able to do much (physically) about the situations that have already occured" (sic) - yes, prayer can help. Also, to understand that it is God who allows such situations to prove human helplessness and to humble those who thought everything was in their control.
Uriah: You won't "invite my ire." The situation is what it is. "High moral ground"...is obviously a relative term. We could waste an entire day on that one.
"The game..." Just a figure of speech. I'm assuming you are not a baseball fan. When one doesn't play according to the rules, they are ejected from the game by the umpire. This is no "game" in the sense we are merely "playing." This is the real deal and spiritual lives are at stake. Your comment brings up an interesting thought. Some of the commments made here have been based on misunderstandings due to the variety of cultures/geographical areas represented. Words don't mean the same thing all over the globe. I don't mind responding to you or clarifying my comments. Sometimes it's hard to discern one's intended meaning without a face-to-face, and sometimes blogs just like this one make the situation even harder because we lack the ability of hearing tone or seeing "body language", etc. For all the good, the Internet still has many flaws.
"...to humble those who thought everything was in their control. Are you saying you know the mind of God? Do you have particular people in mind that require "humbling." Certainly none of the SFs here, right?
God IS in control. I've never denied that. Wouldn't do any good to do that now, would it? He also does whatever He pleases. Sometimes, it is not revealed to us what that is...and just maybe, we may never know this side of eternity.
There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to Him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
Proverbs 6:16-19
Keith - I think we are actually on the same page. For instance, rules of baseball never occurred to me. We don't have that game out here; that might be a blessing too! :-)
I think God is bringing the "humbling" across all who call themselves Christians and all humanity. So SF is included.God is in control, as you said. In which case we can be totally at rest and peace and praying in the situations He brings.
""Some of the commments made here have been based on misunderstandings due to the variety of cultures/geographical areas represented. Words don't mean the same thing all over the globe. I don't mind responding to you or clarifying my comments. Sometimes it's hard to discern one's intended meaning without a face-to-face, and sometimes blogs just like this one make the situation even harder because we lack the ability of hearing one or seeing "body language", etc. For all the good, the Internet still has many flaws.""
ABSOLUTELY. And in another sense there are no rules on the Internet though people try to set them. The medium is different and built to bring about diversity of positions and actions. It is plural. It would be good then to to jettison your "ire" at Elf and bring him back into the "game". Otherwise, you must delete all his posts, instead of using those which you want to use at your convenience to support your position without "listening" to him and making quick judgements. I think in "baseball", players ejected do come back in after a while. Or is it a permanent "ejection"? That would imply a certain bias and unfair practice although one is well aware that life itself is "unfair" only too often as the players in this game know well enough. But it's your call as umpires. Umpiring is expected to be objective but need not necessarily be so as cricket lovers experience. I don't know about baseball. :-)
It is also interesting that you are half-way towards Elf's style of functioning now that you have brought in moderation on the blog instead of instant publication of posts! :-)Or did I get this also wrong?
Respect!
Uriah:
In baseball, players are ejected for the remainder of the entire game.
I have been more than fair with elf. As I've already stated, he came here under false pretenses, made false statements re: his envolvement with SF, i.e. claiming to be a casual observer when he is actually much closer to this situation than he has even revealed here. He feels that he should be able to come here and say whatever he wants, but does not afford that same courtesy to others.
Actually, I have shown quite a bit of patience with elf. You should notice that there are still comments within the thread he has made. I didn't delete all of them; only the most recent.
As far as being "unfair" or "biased," I feel that myself and others have been more than fair with elf. He is the one that decided to be deceptive and clever. No one has to agree with me or anyone else here, but it appears that the majority of the posters claim to be "Christians" (for lack of a better term). That being the case, whether in agreement or disagreement, we are admonished by Christ Himself to be honest with our words (Mt 5:37).
The tone of elf's most recent posts have been nothing more than aggitating and they add nothing to the conversation. As I've already stated, he is free to operate his own blog and espouse any and all opinions he has about this situation. In fact, for a while, he had a blog doing just that. It was linked back to this post, but seems to have disappeared in recent weeks.
Built0in moderation capabilities of "Blogger" makes it easier to clean up after elf's messes rather than having to check the blog periodically. I suppose you could say that I am "half-way towards Elf's style of functioning," except that YOUR comments get published here. NO ONE'S comments get published at elf's blog.
Heather: It is not my intention to pick on you or anyone else, but to try to sort through the facts and understand this situation and how it has affected a family who has lost a relationship with a loved one because of a “church”. I do appreciate you trying to answer my question to the best of your ability.
I would like to point out another observation. You stated, “She obviously made a choice and made that choice for certain reasons.”
Whose “choice” was it for her to move into this man’s house? Even if it WAS the girl’s “choice”, she couldn’t have lived there if he didn’t permit it. No one can just move into someone else’s home without them being a willing participant. It sounds like she had a place to live; actually probably several places-her dorm, her own family’s home, and probably the homes of many friends and relatives. So, why did she need to live in this “church’s”/school teacher’s house? I think we already covered this back in August. Wasn’t it Yehuda that made the comment about other SF families that take young girls into their home as free nannies doing “church work”?
I believe that is one of the many reasons why Keith asked the original question, “Is this a cult?” There are too many things here that line up with cult-like behaviors and this is one of them-a big one.
Harold, this is in reply to a para in your recent post:
"Heather, I would like to expand a little on your statement that we will “be together in eternity”. This appears to be contrary to SF teaching. I have been labeled by Smith’s Friends as a “harlot” and therefore, according to SF, will not be in heaven with you. For you to make that statement would indicate that you are the anomaly in your church, if you truly believe that."
From my experience, the SFs tended to believe that only SFs would comprise the Bride of Christ. Other christians however, those who were not in the SF, could possibly still be among those in heaven. But not part of the Bride. The most such outside christians could expect would be to "watch the wedding" between the Bride ("the Church") and Bridegroom (Christ) and be observers. So such outside Christians could not actually be part of the Bride.
Some among the SFs would give some leeway for Christians who had lived and died before the SFs were founded, but it was very clearly felt by many that during the time that the SFs were on the earth, that anyone who was meant to be in the bride - and not just a sidelines participant - WOULD FIND THEIR WAY TO THE SFs.
When pressed, some among them will quote verses like "those who are Christ's have crucified thethat Flesh" - and some will SAY that this also applies to nonSFs.. .but then they will go onto say that if there is anyone out there desiring to live the crucified life, then naturally they will find their way to the "brotherhood" aka SFs.
Do the SFs still say that they are the 144,000 in Revelation 14? They used to teach that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ. I haven't noticed this mentioned here.
They had a special time years ago with me and another person after a Sunday meeting to indoctrinate us on this teaching.
Keith, I think Uriah_Heep has an agenda here to take the focus away from the any discussion about SF and their beliefs and behaviors and make Elf out to be the victim. The families here are the real victims. They are the ones that have been subjected to verbal and physical threats. It is this local group of SF that has purposely perpetrated the dissension that separates these young people from their families.
Uriah_Heep seems to want peace but in his world that means that everyone shuts up and lets them spin their web of deceit without any accountability. For those who don’t know, Uriah Heep was a character in Charles Dicken’s novel David Copperfield.
“The character is notable for his cloying humility, obsequiousness [look up sycophant], and general insincerity.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriah_Heep_(David_Copperfield)
Of course, there is also the heavy metal rock band whose 1972 album was titled ‘Demons and Wizards’.
Yukonbound: I appreciate your willingness to explain the SF theological viewpoints that they are so unwilling to espouse. Can you possibly explain how they support this concept with scripture? I have read my Bible cover to cover several times and I have yet to find Smith’s Friends mentioned.
If they claim to be the 144,000 then there are several requirements that they must meet, according to Revelation.
1. They have to be related to all twelve tribes of Israel. Rev. 7:4-8
2. They must all be male virgins. Rev. 14:4
Are the women of SF aware of this requirement? Sorry Heather, but you don’t measure up, you’re the wrong gender. Elf, Kare Smith, and this local leader aren’t included either, I know they have children. Uriah_Heep, can you tell us which tribe of Israel you come from?
Harold: I agree with you. Elf is NO victim.
Harold - You seem keen to provoke but why should I fall for your ploy? It is a reflection of your own frustration which I understand perfectly. Keith, as lord of his manor, and you as his buddy have the right to be uncivil. I can afford to be gracious. :-)
Uriah Heep: There is nothing ungracious about booting a proven deciever from the conversation. Sadly, Elf's actions only add to an already tarnished view of SF. He's one guy you really don't need on your "marketing team."
BTW, in your haste to make comments toward me and Harold, you failed to answer Harold's question: "Uriah_Heep, can you tell us which tribe of Israel you come from?" It's a fair question.
Harold, They support it with their general teachings about the Body of Christ which they equate with the Bride of Christ.
Those who are in the Body of Christ will be part of the Bride for eternity.
So, how can one be part of the Body of Christ?
1. By getting saved or "converted", and then living "faithfully" according to the teachings of the Bible, especially the ones that the SFs highlight over and over in their church gatherings. Such as Galatians 5:24, Luke 14:26-27, Romans 8:3, I Peter 4:1-2.
2. And, at least it was taught in the past, by being part of the brotherhood aka SFs.
3. Those who came into contact with their group and chose to leave were spoken of in negative and dubious tones. The impression was given, from the leadership on down, that such people were not part of the Body of Christ (even if they attended other churches and "lived faithfully). And so they could not be part of the Bride in eternity.
Regarding Elf - Uriah, if you haven't already, you might want to take the time to read the initial comments on this thread and continue forward thru all of Elf's many comments that are still there.
There is no single voice on this thread that has been more damaging to the SFs and what they believe and represent.
There is no single voice on this thread that has been so deceptive and even malignant.
Uriah, if YOU or other SFs want to provide commentary and rebuttals and so forth, then I'm sure that Keith and the rest of us will be okay with that. We are still interested in a reasonable dialogue, despite the difficulty of the Oklahoma situation. Elf just wasn't able to rise to the level of a "reasonable dialogue".
I personally would welcome more input from you, Heather, Bjarne, Anna_Crlsn and any others.
Some clarifications:
1. Keith and Harold are now into inanities like figuring out who belongs to which Jewish tribe! I guess they have learnt to follow the footsteps of Elf!!
2.Yukonbound is becoming a laugh with his many claims of inside knowledge about SF. Can he quote any text from SF literature on the issue of SF being the 144000? Very unlikely. He is left to purveying lies and casting aspersions. He lives on "hearsay" and cites "hearsay". But can he name a single SF leader who taught this? Unlikely. Or more likely, he will cite some leader who is dead and who cannot be consulted on the matter. What else can one expect of an "outsider"?
Uriah_Heep: [sigh] I'm publishing your comments; they are starting to become a little silly. BTW, Harold asked the question about your tribe, not me. I simply stated I thought it was a fair question. Please try to keep up with the conversation.
Keith: You don't have to publish the comments. Don't try to practice agape!
The only tribe here consists of Keith, Harold, Sophie and Yukon.
Any other tribe you see around?
Just another fair question.
Uriah_Heep: Did you have something (of value) you wanted to say?
Uriah_Heep, you said you were “theologically neutral” and I was willing to take you at your word, but you are beginning to sound a lot like Elf. If you call Yukonbound an “outsider” then I assume that means you are an “insider”.
Heather didn’t agree with Elf either about Yukonbound so why don’t you single her out too? I respect her viewpoints. I may not agree with hers, but she’s at least able to express a viewpoint.
Let me focus on some positive things about the SFs. I have alluded to this before, so I'll detail a few things more specifically here.
1. In the SFs meetings, there was a very helpful emphasis on "speaking from your life" i.e. people should work with and digest God's Word, have it become a "living reality" in their personal lives and then speak from that living reality. It was edifying, in almost all meetings, to hear preaching from more than 1 person, following the scriptural example found in I Corinth 14:29. That preaching was almost always followed by several personal testimonies. This was, I think, a very effective and spiritually edifying way to conduct church meetings. This is one SF-church pattern that I believe if other church groups could adapt to it, they would receive benefit (2 or more people preaching, followed by testimonies).
2. The emphasis on living a non-worldly and simple life.
3. The emphasis on personal holiness ("victory over sin", not backbiting, not thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought, overcoming anger, lusts, etc.)
4. The personal example of certain individuals among them including: Sigurd Bratlie, the former leader. And some others as well, who are still living, so I won't list them by name (for the time being).
5. The love and care that was shown to children, and the desire to "make things good" for children and youth. Both at church gatherings and at home.
6. The clear teaching about living faithfully "in your daily life". It was always helpful to me to be reminded of applying the truths of the Word in my every-moment, every-day life.
7. The uplifting testimonies, from young and old, relating their experiences and how God was working in their lives personally.
8. There were many, in my experience, who had entered into a genuine state of humility and peacefulness. Simply being around them, and listening to them talk, was quite inspiring.
9. The conferences were helpful. (SFs churches would come together for these conferences)
10. Friendships - I had several that were of value and encouragement to me, across the age spectrum and from various countries too.
As a closing note, since some of this may be mis-interpreted, I have also found much of the above to be true in non-SF churches that I have been able to know over the years.
Harold - I have been reading the posts on the blog carefully. What I see is a pronounced bias against anyone who questions your/Keith's version of the "story" about the girl. You seem to want everyone to agree that your position is right, or else!!!!
The common thread has focussed on "abusing" a girl who has as an adult chosen her own life-style and live where she pleases and with whom she pleases by choosing her own belief system. One is proud that this girl who has consistently pictured as a spineless wimp on this blog publicly.
It is also interesting that you and Keith keep certain posts by Elf alive - how many times you honor him by quoting him in spite of accusing him of chicanery!
I am theologically neutral - I wonder if you believe in the Nicene creed! But I have access to materials about the SF though I am not an "insider". I even have a copy of that video that Yukonbound is seeking thanks to a good friend.
Can Yukonbound back up all his allegations about the SF with tangible SF materials like texts or video? If one does not have any tangible evidence of SF teachings, it is better to stop using "hearsay" as "evidence" which makes him a laughing stock. Gossip rules?
As for the girl, be glad that she had the courage to be different from the "faith" that her family or the community had to offer; she has obviously found something better!
Uriah: You stated: "As for the girl, be glad that she had the courage to be different from the "faith" that her family or the community had to offer; she has obviously found something better!" You imply that you have first-hand knowledge of this situation. Would you care to share your version? Your honesty would be appreciated. Here's your chance to over the "bias."
"...a girl who has as an adult chosen her own life-style..." How about a girl that was indoctrinated for specific purposes PRIOR to becoming (legal age) an adult?
Keep in mind, like it our not, we're dealing with how things are done in America, not Canada or India.
I keep some of Elf's posts alive so that people can seen how deceptive/dishonest he is.
Correction to previous post: Here's your chance to over the "bias."
SHOULD READ: Here's your chance to overcome the "bias."
Uriah
When I attended the meetings, we were taught that only 144,000 would
be saved body soul and spirit. those who have the forgivenss of
sins, their spirit will go to heaven. If you are in sv I
dont know where you are going to
the meetings. I no longer have the
lit, but I can promise you there
are plenty of refrences to the
144K. This is the bride, the ones
who have gone all the way through
the flesh, the wise virgins.
Youkon, I liked your post where
you outlined the positives about
SF and also included that there
non SF churches that do the same
uriah
what are you talking about. Every
thing youkon has said about SF has
been accurate. Yes, they do teach
the 144K is the bride. you need
to do a little more research or someone is telling you a whopper or
you are an sv and you all have
changed what you say you believe,
I find that hard to believe. I can
see sisters wearing pants, but
renouncing the 144k, doubtful
Yukonbound, I too respect your attempt to put a positive light on Smith’s Friends. All of those qualities you speak about are very positive, and worth pursuing as Christians. I know many Christian people who genuinely walk the walk. And I am sure there are many SF members who live accordingly. I know that is not reasonable to judge all SF members by the actions of a few, just as it is not reasonable to judge all “harlot” churches and members by the actions of a few either. There is no perfect church and no perfect people either.
Yukonbound2: I appreciate you sharing the positive aspects of SF. Actually, some of those things don’t sound that different from other church groups.
In a recent post you stated: Some among the SFs would give some leeway for Christians who had lived and died before the SFs were founded, but it was very clearly felt by many that during the time that the SFs were on the earth, that anyone who was meant to be in the bride - and not just a sidelines participant - WOULD FIND THEIR WAY TO THE SFs.
For a long time I’ve wondered how groups like this can actually believe THEY are the ONLY Bride of Christ or Body of Christ and back it up Biblically. So, were Moses, Noah, Elijah, Elisha, David, Daniel, Peter, Paul, and Stephen all SF members? Not likely since this group was founded only about 100 years ago. You also mentioned that they may say “some leeway was made” for Christians before they were founded. Smith’s Friends, Johann Smith, Elias Aklaksen, Sigurd Bratlie, Kares Smith, Brunstat, or any other related names are not written in the Bible. However, John the Baptist was. So why don’t all Baptists claim that THEY are The Body of Christ or The Bride of Christ? Actually, the Hebrew (Jewish) people were the chosen people of God. When they consistently turned their backs on Him, He sent His Son, perfect, pure, without sin, to be our sin offering. He died for ALL people, Jews and Gentiles alike. Our part is to accept Christ as a gift to us from God. When we accept Him as our Lord and Savior, we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit; we will become more and more like Christ. This grace offering is to Jews and Gentiles. It doesn’t say anything about SF. Gentiles refers to everyone who isn’t Jewish.
You also mentioned several passages including Luke 14 (which we’ve already been over several times), 1 Peter 4:1-2, Romans 8:3, and Galatians 5:24. Those still don’t state that SF would be THE chosen Bride of Christ. Any group could read any of those passages and lay claim to the exact same thing. Actually, anyone who believes in Christ CAN lay claim to them. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” “The world” is referring to every single person He ever created. God loves EVERYONE and wants ALL to come to Him. This verse in no way indicates that those who are chosen would “find their way to the SF group”.
Galatians 5:24 says, “Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.”
Let’s go back and begin with verse 19, “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, like I did before that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit, Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.”
This passage says that people who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified (put to death by nailing to a cross) the sinful nature. It then goes on to define what it is referring to by “sinful nature”: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, etc. It is obvious by this passage that God wants His people whether SF or another group of Christians to love one another and not hurt each other with division, hatred, fear, selfishness, etc.
Just because SF preaches these passages over and over doesn’t mean they live by them. If this particular group of SF has affected two young lives in the way that has been described on here, then it appears they are practicing debauchery, hatred, discord, and selfish ambition, and are teaching and encouraging factions and dissensions. Have they truly crucified their sinful nature according to this scripture? Actions speak louder than words.
One last thing. Some might say that not all SFers do this type of thing, that it is an isolated incident within this group from Oklahoma. But, Gladtobegone shared earlier (Aug.19) that he’s witnessed similar things before…and then there’s Friedrick Griess’ story about what happened to his daughter. So is it SF as a whole that separates family members or just this Oklahoma group?
Sophie
The thinking is that there are people
who are in the bride who were
not in SF. The understanding is
that the church was present early on and people kinda lost revelation
over the body of Christ. (eg the bride of christ )JO Smith came along recevied revelation again over the body of Christ. Yes the
understanding is that those desti-
ned to be part of the bride will
find their way to the church.
Uriah_Heep, I do have a bias. I will admit that. So do you. I am sorry that it frustrates you so. But I won’t shut up and quit speaking what I know to be true. If it isn’t true then prove it to me. So far, neither you nor any of your “friends” have provided anything that would change my mind.
I find it interesting that you claim we are “abusing” this girl. Speaking the truth about an injustice is not abuse. What is happening to these families is the abuse which is being perpetrated by your church in the name of religion.
Nobody here has accused her of being a “spineless wimp”. She has been consistently described as “very intelligent”, “graduating at the top of her class”, “an outstanding example for those younger that her”. Don’t try to put words in our mouths.
You keep saying you are theologically neutral but, sorry, I don’t believe you.
Why you are so hung up on the Nicene Creed? I agree with everything except I have a problem with the part about the “one holy catholic and apostolic Church”. Are you trying to say that Smith’s Friends is historically traceable to the original twelve apostles and that they are therefore THE ONE TRUE catholic and apostolic church? Is that what you are trying to say?
Jarsmom, did JO Smith claim to have had a direct revelation from God? You know, this sounds more and more like the Mormon Church. The only thing missing are the golden plates. Oh yeah, those are missing too.
Uriah Heep: You stated: “Harold - I have been reading the posts on the blog carefully. What I see is a pronounced bias against anyone who questions your/Keith's version of the "story" about the girl. You seem to want everyone to agree that your position is right or else.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t Keith and Harold live in the same community where these events have taken place? So they’ve most likely witnessed things first hand and are obviously acquainted with some of the people involved. Uriah, Do you live in this community?
“As for the girl, be glad that she had the courage to be different from the "faith" that her family or the community had to offer; she has obviously found something better!”
Really? Do you think living in fear, deceit, dishonesty, and being separated from and turned against your own family, the ones who care the very most about you, is “something better”? That’s what the people of Jonestown, One Mind Ministries, Meade Ministries, Branch Davidians etc. all said too, that they’d found something better. So, why is it so horrible for anyone to ask questions about this situation?
How would you like it if someone brainwashed your 18 year old daughter and misused scriptures like Luke 14 for the purpose of getting her to turn against you and all her family and friends so that they could use her for their own purposes? Is that what you would consider to be “better” for your daughter?
Keith: There have been several good programs covering the topic of cults on television recently. Dr. Phil did one just this past week about two different cults, one in Abilene, Texas (The House of Yehweh) and one in Baltimore (One Mind Ministries). As a matter of fact, the story of the one in Baltimore reminded me of this story quite a bit. An intelligent, vibrant, yet young and vulnerable (18 year old) girl went off to a college to go to law school. Because she’d always been interested in the Bible and religion, she was sucked into a religious cult by people more than twice her own age. Suddenly she went “missing”. Her mother searched, found out where she was, and went to the place where she was reported to be staying. The people at this home kicked the mom out. She has had no contact with any of her family or former friends. When interviewed, the mom said that she could tell that her daughter had been brainwashed. Her story has a rather sad ending. She is in prison, along with several other members of the group, for allowing her two year old son to starve to death due to the bizarre teachings of this group. So, instead of completing law school, she’s now facing murder charges.
One of the many problems with groups like this is the fact that they take an individual’s freedoms away. Not in the way that they lock them up physically, but mentally. They take on a “group think” and no longer make their choices and decisions based on what is best for them individually but what is best for ‘the group’, its members, and its leader. They take into account what’s best for ‘the group’ when it comes to decisions concerning what they do, with whom they do it, where they go, who they go with, how long they stay, where they work, live and sometimes even who they marry. They lose interest in the things they’ve always been interested in and the people they’ve loved being involved with their whole life. God created us with individual personalities, interests, gifts and talents, and emotions. When we become so engrossed with a particular group, sometimes we lose our individualism all for the betterment of the group. Unless a family is abusive, it is always best for people to be connected with their own families, for many reasons…that’s why God gave us families.
Sophie, I saw one of those programs on A&E last weekend. The story about Meade Ministries caught my attention. The leader of this group is a guy named Charles Meade located in Lake City, FL. The families involved here talked about how their children were originally invited to a Bible study. As time went on they became more and more obsessed with this church and then one day they disappeared. The children never bothered to even say goodbye, and they have been there for 20 years without even a phone call to their families to say they are OK, nothing. One family lost three daughters. They have all married and have children that the grandparents have never seen.
The similarities to the families here are frightening. I just can’t imagine sitting down with those families and saying to them “be glad that they had the courage to be different from the "faith" that your family or your community has to offer; they have obviously found something better!”
Is it their “belief system” that causes these young people here in Owasso to be afraid of their families? Is it simply the “belief system” of Smith’s Friends that keeps them from spending holidays like Christmas, Thanksgiving, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day with their families? I don’t think so.
The track record of Smith’s Friends is disturbing. Things like the Griess story, and similar stories at fellowships in Connecticut, and Seattle. How many similar incidents will happen before one of the SF fellowships ends up on Headline News like the Mormon polygamist group in Texas?
I like the definition of mind control that they showed on this documentary.
Mind Control: The reshaping of a person's attitudes, beliefs, and personality through coercive persuasion without their informed consent.
“WITHOUT THEIR INFORMED CONSENT”. That is the key phrase here. I am confident that if those three daughters in the film had walked into the Bible study and the leader had said “Today, at the end of this Bible study you are going to hate your family and follow me to Florida, giving me all of your money and marrying whomever I tell you”, they wouldn’t have stayed very long. But that was the obvious intent from the day they walked in that door. They were not informed of the hidden agenda.
I’m sure that, here in Owasso, if this teacher had stood up in front of class and said “My goal for this class is to indoctrinate you into my religion, move you into my home and take all your money. And by the way I have 4 sons and 4 daughters I need to get married”, that class would have emptied out pretty quick.
But that’s not how it works. The whole thing is about getting the people to do what you want them to, while believing that it was their own idea.
So Keith, has any of this helped you answer your question?
Harold: To answer you question--"...has any of this helped you answer your question (i.e. is this a cult)?
I've certainly learned alot about a group until 2+ years ago I had never heard of. As far as SF being a cult, I'll say that from what I have seen and heard, they certainly employ tactics that smack of a cult. There's just too much secrecy, double-talk, denial (in the face of undeniable evidence), etc. That said, I've also heard from some members of SF that don't sound like the group we've encountered here.
I've come to the conclusion--and I've said it before--that the local group we've been discussing is somewhat of a rogue group. I blame/attribute that to the lack of organization on the national/international level. The fact that leadership roles apparently don't require formal training, oversight, etc. opens the door for all kinds of questionable activity, i.e. proselytizing under the guise of despensing information.
It bears repeating, for a group that claims they desire to and are working to exhalt Jesus Christ and make him known through their witness...they sure do a good job of keeping that a secret. Ask the average person in our area about this group and/or its leader and they haven't got a clue or don't make the connection.
Keith, Your response was a fair statement given the information here so far. But I came across the most interesting web page recently. It seems our friend Elf has posted a profile on Yahoo. Check it out at http://profiles.yahoo.com/avygravy
Elf lists his interests as: “Reading, Music, Film, Playing the Guitar, Non-platonic friendships with the opposite sex.” Did you get that last one; NON-PLATONIC FRIENDSHIPS WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX.
One of the things that you will find in cults if you do much research is that almost all of them have an underlying hidden behavior that centers around two things, sex and money. The leaders can start out with a very good cause but they almost always end up in the same place, sex and money. Jim Jones was having sex with many of the people in his church, male and female. David Koresh was doing it with many of the women, married and single, in his church. Joseph Smith did the same thing openly as polygamy. Warren Jeffs, Tony Alamo…etc.
Here’s another example of cult behavior. There is a profile on the Brunstad web site http://www.brunstad.org/en/Profile-of-the-Week/John-54-years-old-Canada.aspx?v=5
This man, John, tells about how Sigurd Bratlie influenced his life:
[One sentence that Bratlie said to me has stayed with me. He said, "John, do as I am telling you and you will come to rest." His words have proven to be true!
I will tell a short story to explain the advice that I have. When I met Sigurd Bratlie, I was planning to become a missionary. I wanted to travel to a country where it was difficult to be a Christian and to preach Christianity. I was probably motivated by my desire to do something great and heroic. When I told Bratlie about my plans, he said to forget it."You have nothing to give them," he said,dashing my plans into the ground. But what he said to me was the truth—all I could talk to people about was the forgiveness of sins!"Bratlie," I replied. “Because you are saying it, I will follow your advice." If I had not followed his advice, it is likely that I would have spent my youthtime sitting in a prison somewhere. So my advice to the youth and to everyone who reads this is to listen to and obey those whom God has placed over you—especially the ones who have the overall responsibility of the church.]
Notice that in John’s story here the message is not about following God, it is all about obedience to the church leaders. This is classic cult instruction.
Ref. # 5 of Dr. Lifton’s eight criteria. The Sacred Science: The cult’s ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too ‘sacred’ to call into question, and A REVERENCE IS DEMANDED FOR THE LEADERSHIP. The cult’s ideology makes an exaggerated claim for possessing airtight logic, making it appear as absolute truth with no contradictions.
So Elf seems to practice adultery (at the very least) and teaches at some sort of art institute with access to young people. He has connections with the local fellowship here in Owasso and this local leader teaches in the high school also with access to young people and he has actually lured one of his young female students into living in his home. The fellowship in Oregon seems to be skirting the IRS laws with the “free market society”. The Brunstad organization is preaching obedience to their leaders instead of God.
Jesus said it best in Matt 23:27,28
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Harold: Apparently Elf is covering up his tracks--that particular profile is no longer available. However, our friend seems to start a lot of projects and never quite stick with them. I've found numerous groups and photo sites containing his profile/"work". Even found a few pics of Elf--it's always nice to be able to put a name with a face.
I recall that several of the posts in this thread came from others who are associated with Elf. They were either students or fellow teachers--the ISP contained the name of the school.
Interesting similarities, i.e. school teacher, etc.
As far as obedience to a leader, sadly, we see similar activity even in those groups that may not employ cult-like practices. I can think of several TV evangelists that enjoy blind devotion from many/most of their followers, all the while bilking them out of their hard earned savings to support extravagant lifestyles. Amazing what some people will do and justify in the name of the Gospel.
Just wondering if anyone else has
had this thought.
Is it possible that elf is a pseudo
nym for Alf a popular scandinavian
name. AT one point I could have
sworn our friend elf was a regular
contributor to Hidden Treasures
Any thoughts, eps you former ones.
Maybe we sould call him "he who must
not be named."
Keith, your comment about TV evangelists is one of my central points in this whole discussion, and that of the whole Bible. We live in a fallen world and we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The grace of God is that He will forgive us if we repent.
One of the central themes in all religious cults is that they all believe they alone have the truth and all other church denominations are apostate. The Brunstad Christian Church is no different than the group that is getting some notoriety down in Moodys, Oklahoma. This group calls themselves “A True Church”. The leader of this group is named Darwin Fish. On their web site (www.atruechurch.info) in their FAQ is this statement:
“To our recollection, we have only met one believer that was already in the truth before they met us, and in this case, they had just recently repented. Other than this one exception, everyone we have met has been in some way caught in the deceit of this age”
I guess they haven’t met any of the Smith’s Friends people yet. Wouldn’t it be interesting to get these guys in the same room with Elf and company and watch what happens?
One of the things that I was curious about in the dialogs on this blog came from Christian Blog. She referred to churches outside of Smith’s Friends as “apostolic” churches. I’m currently reading a book where the author speaks of the church as the whole body of Christ, which includes all denominations (Catholics too). He includes this paragraph.
[In our creeds we confess our belief in one holy, catholic, apostolic Church. What does that mean?
The Church is one because all true Christians, while we participate in different confessing congregations, are part of one body. That body is holy because its essential nature is found in Christ. The Church is catholic because it is universal, which is what catholic means – the Church is open to everyone. Finally, the Church is apostolic, which means that its teachings are those of the apostles. We have not invented a religion. We are part of the faith God revealed. ]
Now the apostles were those who received direct teaching from Christ. They were eye witnesses to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They were the beginning of the Church on earth. So if my church is a descendant of the teaching from the apostles, what then does that make Smith’s Friends?
I, for one, make no apologies for belonging to an “apostolic” church. All real Christian churches should be apostolic.
Harold and Keith: You both brought up a point that I’d like to comment on. And that is the point of devotion to a leader or a group. Faithfulness is a good thing when it comes to family and friends and most people prefer relationships that are built on it. But, there is a huge difference in being faithful and ‘obeying’ a church or spiritual leader. And, as Keith mentioned, some ‘church leaders’ can even convince you to trust them with your money not really knowing where it goes or on what it gets spent. But whether it has to do with money or other personal matters and decisions, no ‘spiritual leader’ should be placed over you so that you are ‘obeying’ them.
It is scriptural to obey God. In John 14:15 and 23 Jesus says, “If you love Me you will do what I say.” It is also in God’s word to obey and honor your parents (and it doesn’t say stop when you become a certain age). But, IS IT scriptural to ‘obey church leaders’? The Bible is very clear that “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. So, why should we elevate and obey a leader rather than God? What if you always trusted your “leader” and always did what they told you to as this man ‘John’ advises the youth of SF to do? What if your leader told you to rob a bank? Or commit murder? Or sell drugs? Or shoplift? Or turn against your own family and friends? Or do anything else that is unwise? Should we then “listen to and obey” our leaders? Shouldn’t we receive our instruction/guidance from God which we find in the Bible? There are many church leaders who also misuse God’s word to fulfill their own purposes, like Luke 14. The sad part for them is that God sees all and knows all and He will avenge.
2 Timothy 4:2 says, “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Sometimes we are easily influenced by another person because of their persuasive nature or because they say what our ‘itching ears want to hear’ possibly puffing us up or elevating us in some way. In these types of groups, following the leader’s instructions is taught over following God. In healthy church groups, people are encouraged to ask questions and also encouraged to read the Bible on their own allowing God to minister to them individually rather than some leader or preacher always telling you what the Bible says. Look at what happened in The Peoples’ Temple group. Jim Jones’ followers “listened to and obeyed” what he told them to do and 900+ people all committed ‘suicide’. They were obedient to their leader rather than God and look what happened to them. And then there’s David Koresh, etc….
We need to focus on our relationship with Jesus, (who came down from heaven as God in the flesh, perfect, holy, blameless, and pure) rather that a mere man or woman. Because, no matter how much they try, they will not always make the right choices or wise decisions. Remember, we are ALL sinners. So, why would one sinner look up to or obey another sinner? Why not just obey God? That means that everyone should read his/her own Bible. Some church leaders discourage people from reading their own Bible and/or they interpret scripture for them...and many times, incorrectly. Some will say that God has spoken to them directly and given them a new revelation. That is just another tactic used to get people to do what the leader wants them to do.
One difference in groups like Darwin Fish’s group or SF group and ‘apostate churches’ is that ‘apostate churches’ admit that we are all sinners and that we NEED a Savior (Romans 3:21-26). True believers understand that we are sinners, imperfect and NEED Jesus, our Savior. When we do sin, we humble ourselves before God, our Father in heaven and ask for forgiveness. Many of these other types of groups have a works’ based theology, want to isolate and separate, and call everyone on the outside hypocrites or harlots. They have a tendency to elevate themselves above others claiming they are the elite, the chosen, the elect, they are without sin…. They (this OK group of SF) have a statement on their website that reads something like….. Even here in the Bible belt with all this religious activity going on ….. bla bla bla” If you look up ‘A True Church’s’ website, you’ll notice that their ‘platform’ also, is mostly just bashing and judging others who are not a part of THEIR group. Do they admit that THEY are sinners in need of a Savior? Or are they just interested in criticizing and judging all others who are in ministry? Perhaps they should take a closer look at Matt.7:1, James 4:12, and John 8 and 1 John 1:8.
Romans 3:9 says, “What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throsats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Some don’t seem to grasp the idea of agape love; an unconditional, undeserved, ongoing, love that the Father has bestowed upon us. It is a FREE gift. It is like the love we have for our own children. Our children don’t have to ‘work’ to be loved by their parents.
Ephesians chapter 2 explains all this very well, but verse 6-10 says, “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this not from yourselves, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
So, this Christmas, I hope all will try to remember that we celebrate because it marks the birth of our Holy, Perfect, Lamb of God, Savior, Jesus Christ, who was sacrificed for our sins. All we have to do is accept that we are sinners and allow Him to indwell us. He will cleanse us and make us blameless before God by His blood. Isaiah 53. Merry Christmas!
Sophie: you make a good point about obedience to church leaders. I would like to point out that it is Biblical for us to obey those in authority (Heb 13:17). But this verse goes on to say “They keep watch over you as men who must give an account”. They are accountable to God, but their authority is limited, and they shouldn’t be messing with free will.
Church leaders can have control over what happens in their congregation. For instance, when do we have communion? What is taught in the Sunday School classes? What kind of music is played for worship? Instruments? No instruments?
The problem with coercive churches is that they cross the line and begin to control all aspects of the lives of those in their church such as where people work, where they live, who they marry…etc. This is where they start to take away peoples’, free will.
Take this John guy for instance, how does Sigurd Bratlie know what is best for John? Maybe John would have been very happy and successful as a missionary. That is a decision where John needs to do what he feels God is leading him to. It is appropriate for a church leader to give advice on scriptural matters, but that is not the way John describes the situation. John just obeyed Sigurd because of who he was. That crossed the line. Sigurd was telling John what Sigurd wanted him to do. I don’t believe that Sigurd Bratlie was any more connected with God’s wishes for John than John himself was.
God gave us a free will, but coercive churches take away that free will by manipulating the environment around us. Using guilt, and fear as tools to control people.
There is a story from Hamilton, Ontario in Canada that caught my attention recently. This was investigated by the local news station. I have edited excerpts from the story to illustrate the similarities with our own local Smith’s Friends group. You can read the whole story at http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061027/wfive_pied_piper_061027?s_name=&no_ads=
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The D.C.C., as it's known, is no ordinary church. No hymns here. Every Sunday service begins with a one-hour rock concert - complete with power vocals, driving guitars and pounding bass. The man on the drums is the pastor. Peter Rigo came to Hamilton, he says, "on a mission from God."
The pastor's voice drips with disdain and sarcasm when he talks about other churches and how they spend most of their time competing for parishioners.
For Rigo's followers, it's also pretty much a full time job. Spending every spare hour at the church--living the word of God. Unlike those 'other places.'
In his sermon at the D.C.C., Pastor Rigo says, "For the most part, Church is just a nice outhouse. You simply go once a week, move your conscience bowels, get a little relief and go back out and eat like a pig for another seven days. That's why churches mainly stink."
Lucie and Renato Brun del Re have learned a lot about Peter Rigo's concept of obedience. They've been left with a huge hole in their lives - a hole left by their daughter Mirella.
Like many young people from religious families - Mirella was on a spiritual quest, and hungry for answers. That quest ended in Hamilton. She told her parents that she'd finally found what she was looking for. Lucie explains, "After going through different churches, she came to me and said: 'Mama, I did find the church,' the right one, the true church, she called it." At the Dominion Christian Centre, Mirella found truth and a place in the band as the violinist. What her family was finding was a very different Mirella.
Lucie recalls a conversation with her daughter, after she'd joined the D.C.C. "`God is talking to me and is telling me that we are all going to be moving to Hamilton.' And I said, what do you mean, what are you talking about?"
Lucie started to worry. "And you could see the transformation on her face, like someone was talking for her. So that's when I started to worry that something was wrong - the way she was thinking, analyzing, talking. And she became more distant."
By now Mirella was spending every spare minute at the D.C.C. - helping out in the kitchen, anywhere she was needed. Anywhere except with her family.
"I couldn't believe what was happening. It was like in a movie. You can't even try to make some sense out of it. It was so difficult," said her mother.
And as time went by, Lucie noticed that Mirella's indifference towards her family was turning into something darker. "The hate she developed towards the siblings, the family - the arrogance, the hate towards us. Like we didn't mean anything any more. She was in another world," she said.
Mirella's parents began to wonder if their daughter's thoughts were still her own. And when the Brun del Res began to ask questions, they found they weren't alone with those concerns. They met Cole Brown and his wife, Nettie - both former members. When he attended the D.C.C., Cole was Peter Rigo's right hand man.
At first, Cole found the D.C.C. to be a good and caring place. He remembers when things began to change, starting with Pastor Rigo himself. When Cole told Peter Rigo that he'd had enough and was leaving the church, Cole told W-FIVE that Rigo tried to separate wife from husband.
"He went to my wife and he told her that I'm leading her astray. I'm going to have an affair on her. He would tell her 'you better watch if your husband leaves the church, you're going to have to leave your husband.'"
It didn't work. The couple left the church together and remained together. But others were starting to raise alarms about the church and its Pastor.
When an invitation to attend a town-hall meeting was issued to anyone dissatisfied with the D.C.C. More than 70 people showed up, most of them devout Christians. And almost all said their lives had been negatively affected by the D.C.C. and by Peter Rigo. Shared and disturbing experiences quickly began to emerge, mainly the separation of families.
"Over the space of a year, it was little by little by little. Until she came to a point where she went to my younger children and said: 'I'm sorry, I won't ever see you again,'" said Peter Spiering, who hasn't seen his daughter, Sherry, for more than seven months.
Other members had similar stories. "Nathan used to come to the house and he doesn't anymore. I have to pull his teeth. He refuses to come to dinners. And that's not the Nathan I knew," said Dave Rozon about his son.
And what does Peter Rigo have to say about all this? Basically, that it's all God's will.
He told W-FIVE, "The gospel separates families. Jesus said very clearly in His word: 'I did not come to bring peace and unity, I came to bring division with a sword. And whoever loves the father or the mother, their husband or wife, brother or sister more than me is not fit to serve in my kingdom.'"
Another theme that emerged during our town hall was the complete control that many say Peter Rigo exercises over his congregation. Sarah Muller talked about how D.C.C. members relied on the pastor to make decisions.
"And it came to a place where you didn't even know how to function without asking the Pastor - what should I do? Or, what colour should my hair be? You know, down to stupid things, you needed to ask them about everything." From the most serious spiritual decisions to the most mundane details of life, Rigo, said the ex parishioner, controls it all.
But what if you want to leave it? Again, another disturbing theme emerged from W-FIVE's town-hall meeting. According to the D.C.C.'s ex-members, Peter Rigo intimidated members who tried to leave.
Allen Bilston recalled a conversation he had with Rigo about leaving the D.C.C. "If I leave, then some of these other young people might leave with you. You might as well just tie a stone around your neck. And he said - you might as well just cut your throat, because the Bible says if you lead any of these people out of here, you're as good as dead. You're going to hell."
Joe Ricottone told the town-hall what the pastor said when one particular member left to help set up another church. "He went on a tirade and he basically said - who does he think he is? That man will die within a year of a heart attack. And that was how he blessed him when he left the church."
Other former members of the D.C.C. spoke up regarding the accusations they say Rigo had made against people who left or were thinking of leaving the church. Sarah Muller described how Rigo affected her relationship to her father.
"It came to a place where I couldn't even be close to my father because I thought there was something going on there." She said that Rigo told her, "That my father saw me as a wife and lusted after me in inordinate affections. Because my father had gone to the church and he left."
Another ex-member of the D.C.C. added, "It's a dangerous place psychologically. And when you have a so-called man of God threatening death on people, they're scare tactics and people are living in fear in that environment."
An extreme interpretation of Christianity? Perhaps. But add to that the control, the isolation, the shunning of loved ones. And the people who attended W-FIVE's town-hall meeting came to one disturbing conclusion - they believe the D.C.C. is, without question, a cult.
I still read the comments on this page from time to time I tried to get brunstad feeds again last time they told me I lived to close to the church (I live a 1 1/2 hour drive away a very boring long 1 1/2 hour drive) Someone brought up this verse it grabbed my attention 2 Timothy 4:2 says, “...........they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” I believe the masses are listening to false prophets false teachers telling them what their itchy ears want to hear ----- mainly that they are all sinners fallen from grace and jesus came and died for them and they will be saved if they but confess he is christ (jesus is christ)--------- no, no it is not that easy mainstream christians........Galatians 5:24
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Those are christ's jesus! not just merely people that mumble a sinners prayer!!
That uh profile on yahoo stuffs brother avy said - he's like hidden it now......that's not good if he put that buisiness on it. (he's a leading brother)
Uh but uh if like all the leaders of the smith's friends were to start sleeping w/lot's of people ------- uh they are ALL butt ugly, and those must be some desperate womens. David Koresh was no looker either : p
JEsus christ he came to the earth in the flesh 100% flesh and consecrated a new and living way through the veil that is his flesh he paved. Those that are christ's also go this way ----- and crucify their fleshes to the lusts and desires of them! -------- sex and money uhhh that shouldn't be in the picture none.
read my latest blog post --- I'm not against the smith's friends I am a critic of them --- I do not know what they need to much money for what they think they are building if they ain't about saving people?
I'm rather addicted to the smith's friends still, they are the only people that I know of on earth that preach really preach to deny oneself and take up ones cross and follow jesus and crucify ones flesh "the cross of christ"
1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." The power of god!
You all giving into the lusts of the flesh or are you not?????? YOu find mainstream christian preachers sermons good for mortifying the deeds of your bodies?? Cause I don't find them that helpful for that the mainstream preachers.
I make sure the smith's friends don't have my current address - in the event they are a cult I don't want them murdering me in my sleep. (this is "christian blog" I just changed the name etc. of my blog - "giving it to god" pry my permanent name cause that's what I need to do and I know it -- give it to god - pray pray pray pray) I'm not sure about the smith's friends, more I read this anti the smith's friends site I'm like whoa the smith's friends are a cult. (their not replying to my e-mails most the smith's friends don't reply to my e-mails, so much so I gave up trying to talk w/hardly any them - strikes me as very cultish)
I used to like the smith's friends I did, think that was before the day the macleay solutions trucks were hidden at salem fellowships/macleay christian retreats giant shed thing. (why hide your vehicles like that ------ something shady about it ------ and the bad acting of the young kids I was w/pretending to be surprised to see the macleay solutions trucks ---- brunstad they said helped the smith's friends brothers that own macleay solutions buy that buisiness.......and if it has 0 to do w/macleay why name the buisiness "macleay solutions" why not give the buisiness another name? and if it never happened none the free market society stuff why did yelena someone "in" the inner circle tell me in reply to me asking about macleay solutions that it was a "Free market society" and then the youth pastor when I confronted him about macleay solutions and making use the free market society told me other people above him in the church are making the shots?" Why didn't they name that buisiness something else???????? This detective is to smart smith's friends - you should've had your young kids do a better acting job at their supposed surprise to see the macleay solutions trucks hidden in the big shop thing ---- they were really really hiding those trucks there! they had some explanation for why they were hiding those trucks there to, can't remember what their excuse was????? it just seemed so dang shady to me.
Keith: I would like to follow up on the story about the D.C.C. (Dominion Christian Centre) church. Did you notice the demeaning way that this guy Rigo talks about other Christians? Like Smith’s Friends and the “True Church”, the D.C.C. regards themselves as the only true Christian church.
This story described Mirella as someone on a “spiritual quest”. Obviously she had found other churches to be watered down Christianity or downright hypocritical. Can’t blame her for that and for wanting to find something better. But do you see how this church totally consumed all of her time so that she had no time for her family and then this statement: “The hate she developed towards the siblings, the family - the arrogance, the hate towards us.” Is that going to show a real Christian witness to her family?
And notice as well how Rigo uses Mat 10:34-36 like Luke 14 to separate Mirella and others from their families. "The gospel separates families. Jesus said very clearly in His word: 'I did not come to bring peace and unity, I came to bring division with a sword. And whoever loves the father or the mother, their husband or wife, brother or sister more than me is not fit to serve in my kingdom.'"
This wasn’t an isolated incident because they did the same to the kid named Nathan. It was this same characteristic of People’s Temple and the Branch Dravidians that got the families of those victims stirred up and asking questions.
In our local SF church they have threatened you and others with legal action. They threatened people with physical violence just like a schoolyard bully who never grew up.
This guy Cole is a good example of the manipulation that occurs as well. Rigo is so self absorbed and narcissistic that he would rather destroy his good friend’s family and steal his wife than let Cole exercise his own free will. And he tries to hide behind the veil by using the statement that it is all “God’s will”.
Ref: Lifton’s Criterion #2, Mystical Manipulation; “If a person leaves for any reason, accidents or ill-will that may befall them are always attributed to God’s punishment on them.”
Notice how Rigo began to control all aspects of the lives on those in the church. “From the most serious spiritual decisions to the most mundane details of life, Rigo, said the ex parishioner, controls it all.”
Ref: Lifton’s Criterion #3, Demands for Purity; “The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience.”
In this local S.F. group, the leader seems to control all aspects of those in his family too like where they live, where they work, and whom they marry. It’s classic manipulative control.
One characteristic of a narcissist is that they tend to project their deviant character traits on to those around them that are a threat. So for example, if he tells a lie and gets caught, his first reaction is to blame the accusers, everyone is a liar, except for him.
In this story Rigo convinces this girl named Sarah Muller that her father lusts after her. This drives a wedge between her and her father and also makes Sarah more dependant upon Rigo for protection. The truth is probably more like Rigo is the one lusting after her.
Is the same thing happening here? There are so many a similarities with other cult groups that it is hard not to believe it is. And just like the conclusion at the W-Five town hall meeting: “But add to that the control, the isolation, the shunning of loved ones. And the people … came to one disturbing conclusion …cult”
To this day I am still terrified of taking communion thanks to the sermons the main preacher of the smith's friends at salem fellowship gave 1-2 times a year before their communions (which were at a special time - what people call a "closed communion") He always said the main pastor that only actively buisy serving the lord disciples of christ should be taking communion, that if you weren't buisy currently rental cooking, and/or pge, and lot's of feeding the hungry, and not living no life your own at all buisy all the time doing something or another for jesus.........you were drinking damnation to hell by taking communion ------ pretty much. He always preached big sermon before the 1-2 times a year they had communion, and then the next "general meeting" they'd talk and talk about testimonies people gave the faithful pge citizen's able to take communion gave - to make all us not so much rental cooking, pger's, rose gardeners ----- feel like even more shit. My husband says he hasn't gotten baptised yet cause, he's seen me be so severely negatively impacted by the smith's friends (it's pry had some effect on him for reals). So I didn't take communion at living hope today the mainstream christian church I go to these days.........I take communion post the smith's friends about 50% of the time. I am planning on crocheting hats for like people w/cancer.........I just haven't had the time lately to get started. I'm plannin on doing something soon for jesus good! (well may just give money to my favorite charity ------ cause I might end up liking the hats I'm about to crochet ---------- which pry makes me even more the sinner not worthy of taking communion) I never ever ever ever the 10+ years took or even went to one their communion meetings -------- but sat through many sermons made to feel like a piece of shit unworthy of jesus.
Somedays though I just want to take communion just you know w/some love for christ ------ just out of love for jesus. But I didn't today I didn't the smith's friends scare tactics still ring through my ears my heart, my soul.
The youth pastor this last big talk he gave me told me indefinately that if I left the church I'd pry go to hell that everything would eventually sooner or later go so bad for me, that I'd end up w/0 zeal or fire, and become a earthly empty worldy something or another. He said it hardly goes well for anyone that leaves the church hardly ever. But to stay gotten to be at too a high price too for me.........I need to believe that jesus loves me.
Giving it to God: You said, “I'm rather addicted to the smith's friends still, they are the only people that I know of on earth that preach really preach to deny oneself and take up ones cross and follow jesus and crucify ones flesh "the cross of christ"
You also said, “You find mainstream christian preachers sermons good for mortifying the deeds of your bodies?? Cause I don't find them that helpful for that the mainstream preachers.”
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I’m sorry that you can’t seem to find a congregation in your area that is helpful to you. But, have SF been helpful to you? You continue to say they won’t call you back and they won’t allow you to receive their satellite feed. You’ve also posted on here that you have questions concerning Macleay Solutions. Others who have posted on here have WITNESSED first hand many non-Christian behaviors among members of this group, including threats, lying, deceit, secrecy, isolationism, separating families by misusing Luke 14 and scare tactics, manipulation and bullying yet they claim to be Christian, as a matter of fact, they claim they are THE chosen. It has also been posted on here that they believe if you are supposed to be part of THIS chosen group of God, you’ll find your way to them. That is not scriptural nor does it even make sense. It is very clear that God intends for us to ‘GO and make disciples of all nations’. Yet, they don’t financially support missions. There is not a SF group in every single city or community in the world. So, how is it that lost souls who know nothing about SF are going to just ‘find their way to SF’? Maybe they do preach to deny one’s self and take up one’s cross and follow Jesus and crucify one’s flesh. But are they actually exemplifying this or just preaching it? There is a huge difference!!
You also said, “I make sure the smith's friends don't have my current address - in the event they are a cult I don't want them murdering me in my sleep.”
I’m assuming you’re using humor in saying this. The definition of a cult doesn’t necessarily include murdering people. There have been some extreme cases such as The Peoples’ Temple (Jim Jones) or One Mind Ministries where murder has been involved, but that isn’t always a factor in classifying a group as a cult.
Bottom line: Correct me if I’m wrong, but you have a child, right? How would you like it if you gave birth to your child and spent 18 or 19 years parenting them, loving them, caring for them in many ways, teaching them many things, being a very important, significant part of their life, sharing special trips and events with them, creating special memories with them, and then suddenly have them intentionally turn against you, their extended family, and all other significant people in their life by a teacher, his family, and ‘church’ and then be influenced to move into his home in order to control their environment?
So, whether SF emphasizes that one particular verse or not, the important factor here is the fact that they have deliberately torn families apart, which IS NOT Christian at all. So have they really crucified their flesh and denied themselves? Hardly! It sounds like the only things they’ve denied is the Truth and this girl’s family from being part of her life. This is nothing but an act of selfish greed….how is that crucifying their flesh? The Bible is very clear that God calls Christians to love one another. If these people really are Christian and they really care about other people (including this girl), they would want what’s best for her. Part of that is having close family relationships. Does she get to spend holidays or celebrate special events with her own family? Does she ever get to do the same things she did before with her loved ones – anyone outside of this group? And, since it has been made apparent that this is not an isolated case, it causes people to question the group and their teaching as a whole.
As a parent, I only know that would leave a huge hole in not only her parents’ lives, but many people’s lives as well. If SF turned one of your loved ones (your child, your niece, granddaughter, sister, friend, cousin, etc.) against you and your whole family, would you still be addicted to them? Doubtful!!
And one more thing, Jesus loves all of us so much that he died on the cross for us. How many people in your life would die for you like Jesus did? How much more could he do to prove it to you?
Giving it to God
It is good to hear from you again.
I am concerned that you are afraid
to take communion. Godly fear is
one thing but remember that perfect
love casts out fear. I would like
to reccomend a book to you. It is
called The Meal that Heals by Perry
Stone. I think It would help you
be able to let go some of your fears. Happy New Year and Blessings on you.
"sophie" I agree it is terrible that the smith's friends have caused for the separation of various families, whether intentinally or not. I get it that you don't have no other smith's friend to be mad at so I'm it.........but I'm really more on your side then not. I don't got access to the sattelight feeds, I try to loggin w/the password one them gave me and it says "access denied"!!!!!!!!!!
Romans 8:31 "What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?"
I'm against the smith's friends very very very against them, I didn't choose to be against them they choose me for their enemy, in shunning me as much as they did, in denying me access to their sattelight feeds, 7 them jumping me - stopping short of my face but clearly desiring to murder me and clearly having the intent of murder on their hearts - while rental cooking and none them appologizing, etc.
At salem fellowship the smith's friend church near me, there is 1 girl that is definately not from any the smith's friends families, and she hangs around a older sister all the time, hangs her head low doesn't like hold her shoulders back carry herself w/confidence none, she must be living w/that smith's friend sister she is there at church w/her to much not to be actually living w/her.........least 1 person at salem fellowship that's been drug away from her family I do believe, or immensely suspect. Nomadder where that girl is from, her beat downedness strikes me the most - that is 1 girl that has been beat down into submission --- mentally. Do people willingly walk around like that w/heads hanging low, just beat like that willingly??????
And I watched a smith's friend ask another smith's friend for permission to live somewhere else.....anna literally walked up to micheal timmons and asked him if it was ok for her to move to tennesee ---- she's back to salem fellowship now not sure if because she was told to move back or what? ----- it was weird! And I'm fully guessing if micheal timmons would've told anna no she couldn't move to tennesee that she wouldn't of! (in such a way did she ask him) it's not accident that micheal timmons is 1 the owners of "macleay solutions".
------ I think the smith's friends might someday murder me --- 7 them jumped me w/much the intent of murder in their hearts ---- I looked many them dead in the eye from inches away from my face literally some them 2 inches from my face ------ no love for me in their eye's ----- they were all about killing me. I believe only reason they didn't is cause they'd get in trouble w/the leading brothers.
But I can't live my life in fear of that, got to just move forward crocheting hats : ) (made my 1st hat last night ------ turned out well, easy to crochet)
I'm not for the smith's friends, definately not --- they made a attempt on my life, whether they carried it out or no, that was a serious thing 7 them jumping at me like that!
Giving it to God: You said, “I agree it is terrible that the smith's friends have caused for the separation of various families, whether intentinally or not. I get it that you don't have no other smith's friend to be mad at so I'm it.........but I'm really more on your side then not.”
I’m sorry if it appears that I’m angry at you. I’m not. And, yes I do have other smith’s friends to be mad at…all the ones who participate in these evil, dishonest, corrupt, selfish, and hateful type activities hurting young people like this girl and her family, the boy, his family, and you. And as it has been stated before, hers apparently isn’t the only family they’ve done this to. I’m just trying to comprehend why you would continue saying you’re so ‘addicted’ to them after all the things they have done to you and others.
Christians are to be ‘like minded’ in Christ. We may have our varying styles of worship, etc. But, we, as CHRISTians, true worshippers and followers of Christ, should love Him and want our behavior and actions to be reflective of Him (no matter which congregation or where we live) which then brings honor and glory to Him. These behaviors and actions are presented in God’s word, the Bible….things like love, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, truthfulness, faithfulness, purity, compassion. This SF group says they are the ONLY CHOSEN bride of Christ, but yet it has been witnessed by people in differing parts of the country that they threaten, lie, deceive, hurt, divide, use scare tactics, control, manipulate, harass, and obviously brainwash people. Jesus didn’t do any of those things. He showed unconditional love. Jarsmom quoted 1 John 4:18, “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives (casts) out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” Why does SF want to scare (cause fear in) people? Isn’t that why people threaten others – to intimidate and scare??? Perfect love is Christ. If these people understand agape love and truly love the way Christ loves us, they wouldn’t want to scare people. 1 John 19-21 goes on to say, “We love because He first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And He has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.”
You seem to be very determined to love God and earnestly follow and worship Him. Don’t let SF or any other human being get in your way. Cast your eyes upon Jesus!! He does love you!! I’m sorry if my anger seemed misdirected.
I've been addicted for awhile to the smith's friends mp3's (some me not wanting to accept that they are a cult - my husband says subconsciously I don't want to accept they are a cult cause if I did that that'd mean I'm somehow stupid or not so smart to fall into their trap) - my idea of zeal and fire has evolved some, zeal to me these days isn't hingent no more on a fiery testimony - more in my love for people (which is definately coming out in the form of hats for chemo patients right now) it's a active thing zeal is for me these days that I have everyday w/a fervent love for jesus when crocheting my hats - a doing sort of zeal and fire very active zeal. These days I'm starting to realize, jesus is my strength and what I've been after and what I need (not nessarily a particular doctrine though you know some pastors out there are quacks). I'm working on drawing nearer to jesus this year - and getting a bodybuilding competition physic....I'm getting close muscles poping everywhere on me : ) I bought another bikini on ebay today it's a bikini summer this summer for me : ).......finally.
It'd god's will i not be a smith's friend, like the smith's friend that brought me to the smith's friends yelena she dumped me for a friend for the 2nd time told me it was a free country and she didn't have to be my friend if she didn't want to......they don't want to be my friends the smith's friends it don't look to be at all --- or least not the bulk of them ----- and it's ok. Jeremiah 29:11
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." Smith's friends thoughts about me apparently are shitty, but god's thoughts about me for me they are still "thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end" so I will continue to go to living hope and make my hats and wait patiently (as patiently as I am able - patience isn't my greatest virtue) James 5:7-8 "Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near." God will finish the work he started in me I believe it, take awhile taking awhile. Romans 9:28
It's a free country the smith's friends don't have to be friends w/me if they don't want to be, I'm excepting this....just took awhile : )
Harold: Just breezing through your last couple of posts--the similarities are definitely there. Pretty scary.
Giving It to God: I'm having a little trouble following some of your posts, but from what I can gather, SF has NOT been beneficial for you. Rather than becoming closer to God and trusting in Him, putting your faith in Him, abiding in the peace only He can give...you come across as scared and frustrated. This is not what God wants for us. We have not been given a spirit of fear, but rather a "spirit of Sonship." (Rom 8:15) Consequently, we are "heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ" (Rom 8:17).
Why would you continue to associate yourself with a group that instills such fear and frustration in your life? They have a hold on you they are not intitled to! I'm praying that you will be able to break away from them and their influence and live the abundant life that God in Christ has purchased for you.
Sophie: As always, thank you for your caring spirit and sensitive approach to the discussion here. You add much to the conversation.
I'm done done done w/the smith's friends (there's no going back for me now). I am so afraid that a smith's friend is going to stab me to death.....I saw someone that looked way like one the leading smith's friends brothers at salem fellowship walking out of kaiser.........freaked me out. (and he looked very unhappy)
---- I've gave the smith's friends 1 billion reasons to murder me. I know they are mad at me most them are - I've went to their church 2 times this year I know lot them are fuming mad at me.
----- they recently like teared down walls of a water logged large building in portland like 50 of them did for 2 days and article on their secret password site said they looking forward to many more jobs like this in the future. They also have torn down a large shedlike building lot their church did. Not sure if they are getting paid for this stuffs, or just doing this as "fundraising" but most churches don't do construction sorts of jobs or jobs in general as a group like this. People usually go to the unemployment agency for extra work, or classified ads in the paper.
I can't say why I fear for my life so much. I can't really talk about it. My terror though is super real and founded.....I'm dead they are going to kill me.
My husband says I don't have nothing to worry about that the smith's friends can't sue me, and cults don't go murdering people he says they are all cowards deep down. He says they just going to continue as they have w/me, not replying to e-mails if I try to e-mail any them and/or keep telling me I'm confused, misunderstanding what's going on etc. He says right now I'm just annoying to the smith's friends.
If you want to read about the "smith's friends" latest construction job e-mail me at my junk e-mail address scoobyruby33@yahoo.com
I tried taking new pics for my bodyspace sad sad sad not much difference : (.............http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/15inch/
I just got to try harder. It's been a ruff past few years for me, I gained weight after having kids and the weight aint been wanting to come off me, and to make things worse my sister is a very very very successful, very tall very skinny super model (well she's neared super model status) "aimee ruby" just google her name and imagine me having to stand next to her in family pics....my double chin is killing me. If the smith's friends don't kill me my double chin definately will.
Giving it to God: You stated, “I've been addicted for awhile to the smith's friends mp3's (some me not wanting to accept that they are a cult - my husband says subconsciously I don't want to accept they are a cult cause if I did that that'd mean I'm somehow stupid or not so smart to fall into their trap)”
This blog began because a ‘very intelligent’ ‘graduating at the top of her class’ young female was deceived into believing a lie by a person who took advantage of her and her youth. There are many gifted, talented, intelligent, sane people who are taken advantage of daily. It doesn’t mean you’re stupid or ‘not so smart’. It means there are evil, deceiving, people in the world.
You also stated, “my idea of zeal and fire has evolved some, zeal to me these days isn't hingent no more on a fiery testimony - more in my love for people (which is definately coming out in the form of hats for chemo patients right now) it's a active thing zeal is for me these days that I have everyday w/a fervent love for jesus when crocheting my hats - a doing sort of zeal and fire very active zeal.”
As I was reading this, this correlation came to my mind. You said you’re crocheting hats for chemo patients. Am I correct? So, are you charging the chemo patients for these? Do they have to work in order to receive these hats? Or, are these hats just FREE GIFTS that you’re crocheting out of compassion and love for these people?
It reminds me of God’s unconditional love for us. Just like these chemo patients have an illness called cancer, all of mankind has an illness called sin. This is an assumption…but you (out of compassion) want to GIVE these chemo patients a FREE GIFT in the form of hats, right? God, out of compassion, wants to GIVE all of mankind (because of our sin illness) A FREE GIFT called His Son, Jesus. He paid the price for our sins on the cross so we don’t have to spend an eternity apart from God in hell. When you give these hats to the chemo patients, they have a choice whether to accept the hats or not…they can wear them or not wear them….their choice….but they don’t have to work in order to get one of them, right?
Most cult theology is works based. So, in a cult world, the chemo patients would have to work in order to get a hat from you. It wouldn’t be GIVEN out of compassion due to their illness. It would be earned through working. Therefore, these chemo patients would basically be in bondage to you, until they paid off the hat. One reason cults teach works based theology is it keeps its members indebted to the group and too busy to have any real life outside of the group. But it also makes money for the group or leader (under the disguise of tithing or giving money to the church).
God, on the other hand, is a compassionate God, GIVING Himself in the form of a human being, come down from heaven as His One and Only Perfect Son.
When you give the chemo patients a hat, they have to choose whether or not to take this and wear it or decline. It is the same with us, we have to choose whether or not to accept God’s free gift.
If the chemo patients take your hat, most likely they are so thrilled and thankful for what you gave them that they will most likely want to do something to please you or give back to you in some way. It is the same with us and God. When we truly come to understand the awesome GIFT He has given to us, we, out of thankfulness want to do something in return…not work in order to get that free gift, but because we are so grateful of what He has done for us.
Ephesians 2:8 says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Harold: You said, “I would like to follow up on the story about the D.C.C. (Dominion Christian Centre) church. Did you notice the demeaning way that this guy Rigo talks about other Christians? Like Smith’s Friends and the “True Church”, the D.C.C. regards themselves as the only true Christian church.”
God tells us very plainly in the Holy Scriptures that we are to believe in and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Jesus is the head of the true church. Colossians 1:15-23, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
The Bible DOESN”T say, “In order to be saved you must join the True Church (Darwin Fish’s group) or Smith’s Friends or Dominion Christian Centre or David Koresh or Jim Jones or the House of Yahweh or the Baptist or the Methodist or the Lutherans or the Catholics.”
And, some of these cultic groups that say Jesus was just a man and attained (worked until He reached) perfection and so we can also. If their teaching is true, at what point, does one attain perfection? How much work is enough to attain perfection? (Remember these types of groups teach a works based theology (among other things) in order to keep its members busy….so busy they have no life outside of their group). Jesus paid the price for our sin once and for all…He is the propitiation for our sin….we don’t have to work in order to gain grace and mercy. Romans 5:8 says, “But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
There are so many scriptures that make it very clear that Jesus is God in the flesh and worthy to be worshipped and praised. Jesus is the head of ‘the true church’ so anyone who loves Him and accepts Him as their Lord and Savior is in ‘the true church’. These groups take the focus off of Jesus and put it on works and pleasing an earthly human leader, who IS fallible.
And, some of these cultic groups that say Jesus was just a man and attained (worked until He reached) perfection and so we can also. If their teaching is true, at what point, does one attain perfection?
---------- perfection is extremely obtainable.......how we know when we have been made perfect?......
Hebrews 13:21 "Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." When we are buisy about doing "every good work to do his will" And are plentily on the narrow way having our fleshes crucified to their lusts and desires 1 Peter 5:10
"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you." After you have suffered in the flesh for awhile, then the god of all grace shall "make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you" I believe that to................but you know a person getting close to this perfection when they are buisy doing good works and crucifying their flesh.....then you getting close and it's god's promise after you have "suffered a while" all you know not giving into the lusts of the flesh, god will stablish strengthen and perfect you -------- and that is something that can really happen ----- but to get to that point you have to be willing to suffer in the flesh deny yourself and take up your cross and follow jesus daily.
Good works aren't everything though, love, love, love is important (I seriously have crocheted for charities for several years now ------ used to crochet leparcy bandages - I pay for postage and mail em out free I give them free - same will be w/the hats ------- though some the hats I am selling to like you know regular people's : ) Matthew 7:22
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" So some people will do "many wonderful works" and not make it.....they did "many wonderful works" they saying so! I believe them. They must've kept their lusts of their fleshes intact ------ that's what I recogn??? : )
Smith's friends doctrine wise are 100% on the money, jesus 100% came in the flesh!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it don't matter even how much you do for jesus, works happen, faith without works is dead, so if you have faith you have works, but our hearts ----- to do the 1st works w/a burning love for jesus, with no love for the things of this earth that's the idea.
This earth and all that is in it is going to pass away! Buying stuffs anything you buy it's going to rust, or get moths, etc. etc. store up riches in heaven where moths and rust no happen!
Christ was perfect, to be near to jesus is to deny oneself and take up ones cross and follow jesus daily. JEsus wasn't so much living for himself, he looked to other people's needs a lot, and don't think he owned many worldly good either, he was about the things of above and not the things of this earth --------- I working hard to be following jesus like that. It's good to store up for ourselves treasure in heaven instead of treasures on this earth. To deny ourselves and take up our crosses and follow jesus daily.
im not butting in am I. I also confused about this group and read this blog sometimes. Its seems to not be a a cult but something funny like a group that want to do what the Bible says rather than speak about it. They want to be like Jesus so dont mind to offend people by their actions. They test each other to see if they do what Bible says. Its all about how u take it - Romans 8:28 is one of the key verses for a member. so they may do say extreme stuff like not speak to family/cut them off to see they responses. They test eachother to check their response, they may even get a kick out of it? who knows but they mostly quite about it. Their faces do change when they join this group and become sullen, and speak seriously rather than joke. They peak of the 'hidden'. Its quite confusing to the normal person, but believe its Gods way. They just different like anotha culture, maybe from another planet? who knows? dont worry in not 1 of them.Im as confused as you.
Giving it to God: You said, “---------- perfection is extremely obtainable.......how we know when we have been made perfect?......”
Do you really know any people who have actually reached a state of perfection on this side of heaven?
Hebrews 10: 10 – By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11-And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can NEVER take away sins;
12-but He (Jesus), having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.
I totally agree with you that we (as Christians) should try to become more and more like Jesus…not for the sake of reaching perfection on this earth (because it can’t happen). Can any of us HONESTLY say that we are kind, forgiving, gentle, self-controlled, loyal, truthful, honest, sincere, joyful, patient, faithful, non-judgmental, compassionate (you get the idea) 100% of the time? Jesus IS God, therefore He is and always has been perfect. None of us can reach perfection because we aren’t God, but Jesus is. He demonstrated this by His sinless life and by the many miracles He performed while on this earth. I know of no other than God or Jesus who has a sinless life and can perform miracles. We should strive to do away with our sinning in order to GLORIFY GOD with our words and our actions. When we know that we are sinning, yet we continue on in that sin, it is definitely NOT glorifying the Lord.
Romans 6:1-2 says, “What are we to say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin, still live in it?”
When we continue in our sin, we are ‘giving in to the lusts of the flesh’. Those ‘lusts of the flesh’ can be witnessed in actions such as sex, money, materialistic comforts, pride, arrogance, selfishness, lying, stealing, fits of rage, jealousy, bitterness, shame, holding grudges, trying to cheat people out of things, hatefulness.
SF teaches that we can have victory over sin to the point of reaching perfection, right?
If they base their standards on the Bible, God’s Word, this group obviously doesn’t seem to be trying very hard to reach perfection because there are many scriptures in the Bible that they appear to be downright ignoring such as:
Matt 15:4, “For God said, “Honor your father and mother,” and, “He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death.”
Matt 19:19, “Honor your father and mother; love your neighbor as yourself.”
Proverbs 19:26, “He who assaults his father and drives his mother away is a shameful and disgraceful son.”
Ephesians 6:1, “Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother which is the first commandment with a promise, that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.”
Proverbs 19:22, “What is desirable in a man is his kindness, and it is better to be a poor man than a liar.”
Proverbs 19:11, “A man’s discretion makes him slow to anger. And it is his glory to overlook a transgression.”
Matt 7:3, “And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?”
1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
1 John 3:18, “Little children, let us not love with word or tongue, but in deed and truth.”
1 John 4:20, “If some one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.”
1 Corinthians 13:1, “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered (hold grudges), does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all thing, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. 13:But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
It has been evidenced that this group has deliberately hurt families by separating them.
Anutor1: You stated, “Its seems to not be a a cult but something funny like a group that want to do what the Bible says rather than speak about it. They want to be like Jesus so dont mind to offend people by their actions.”
Can you name something that they’re doing that is “like Jesus”? Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will do what I say.”
“Romans 8:28 is one of the key verses for a member.” And also, “dont worry in not 1 of them.”
Just curious, but if you’re not one of them (SF), how do you know what their key verses are? Romans 8:28 is not mentioned anywhere else on this blog.
“Their faces do change when they join this group and become sullen, and speak seriously rather than joke.”
That’s interesting that you brought that up, because just recently, Dr. Phil again focused his program on cultic groups. One of the ways that several people who had loved ones in cultic groups described their loved one was by the expressionless looks on their faces.
“Its quite confusing to the normal person, but believe its Gods way.”
The Bible is very clear that God’s way NEVER involves threatening people, lying, divisiveness, denigrating anyone not in their group, purposefully convincing people to turn their back on all of their own family and friends, always being too busy for anyone but people in their own group.
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